Hmm. Comments:

[Normy]

"Jean-Luc Picard" used to say something similar to his colleagues when the Enterprise got into a particularly bad situation. When I flew 727's and 747's as Captain Normy, I did the same thing when I checked the flight plan that company dispatch had sent me, and wasn't sure that everything was correct and legal. If it didn't make sense, the first thing I would do was hand it to my first officer and ask him "does this make sense to you".

Sad: I only did that a few times, and each time the FO told me, and I quote: "Well, you know, I really don't know the [company/FAA regulations] well enough"

Great. I already have two autopilots. I guess I have a third~

Anyway, when I fly if a strange question comes up in an emergency situation, I like to ask my colleagues their thoughts. On the few times [16] that I have declared an official "emergency" to ATC, none of them have really had any input. But they didn't need to, I made the obvious call, and this situation has never come up.

But HERE...is a different situation and the the column from the Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel is a bit different. Now I want YOU people to think about...a racist. Should he have a government job? Should the goverment be able to fire him for his political beliefs?


-This one is a bit perplexing to me. I can see both sides of the argument, and really, I don't know what to think.

In advance, I want you to know that I find the group in question utterly disgusting, and simply mentioning this group, and even this man's occupation....kind of makes me queasy. At the same time, after reading this article [from the Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel], I have to say that the censorship of thoughts or ideas is the ultimate destruction of freedom. As soon as the first thought or idea is censored, all freedom is lost.


N!

The story: GAINESVILLE, Florida -- A prison guard who acknowledged being a member of white supremacist group the Ku Klux Klan has been fired for belonging to a subversive or terrorist organization, a violation of the county agency's code of ethics.

Wayne Kerschner, an Alachua County Sheriff's Office corrections officer, was fired Tuesday following a 10-month internal investigation.

The investigation revealed that Kerschner applied online for membership to the United Northern and Southern Knights of the Ku Klux Klan a year ago, paid $30 a month for access to a members-only Klan Web site and that the group did a thorough background check that included his credit history before allowing him to join.

The Klan has "extremely high standards," Kerschner told investigators, according to an administrative investigation report released Thursday. "They do a complete criminal background check on everybody."

A spokesman for the Sheriff's Office didn't return a phone call Thursday, and Kerschner's telephone number was not listed.

During the internal probe, Kerschner told investigators the Klan never asked him for information about the jail or the Sheriff's Office and that he never let his membership interfere with his job. He said he would never get involved with anything criminal and wouldn't ever jeopardize the sheriff's office. He said he viewed the Klan as a religious or political organization.

"I don't let it interfere with my job," he said, according to the report. "I don't let it interfere with my personal judgment call on anything like that. I mean, I think I am a pretty dang fair officer."

Kerschner told authorities that he blogged regularly on a KKK Web site, attended two rallies in Tennessee and was an officer of the United Northern and Southern Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. He said his wife was also a dues-paying member.

Kerschner gave some details into how he was inducted into the Klan in a process called "naturalization." He said he was blindfolded during the ceremony and was touched on the shoulder with a sword after taking an oath. He said he was on probation for a month before he could have full access to the Klan Web site, which offered information on Klan handshakes and the different colors available for Klan robes.

Kerschner told investigators he was sorry for getting involved with the Klan.

"If I could erase time, I would," he said.

[nynor]

fired. for sure. if the guy is stupid enough to join a group like that, especially the KKK actually, he is not fit for any kind of duty. not as a guard, a police officer, nada.

[Normy]

Originally Posted by nynor

fired. for sure. if the guy is stupid enough to join a group like that, especially the KKK actually, he is not fit for any kind of duty. not as a guard, a police officer, nada.

I TOTALLY agree!


-But if they can fire a guy for belonging to a group like that....can they fire people for belonging to other groups? What if the governor is a republican and one of his surrogates belongs to a Democrat group. Can the governor summarily fire him? CAN you be fired for your political beliefs when you work for the government?

N?

[nynor]

you are confusing political beliefs with racism and groups that deal in hatred of others due to their skin color/ethnicity.

[Heel n Toe]

Originally Posted by Normy

What if the governor is a republican and one of his surrogates belongs to a Democrat group. Can the governor summarily fire him?

Most people who work in a governor's office are "at will" employees and are usually thoroughly vetted before being hired. Likewise for people working for any constitutional officers that the governor appoints... like supt. of education, supt. of transportation, supt. of finance, etc.

If any of these people decide to change their stripes and are found to be supporting "the opposing party," they can be considered a liability and be asked to leave or have their job eliminated.

That's just the way it works... people working at higher positions in state government and in the governor's office accept those ground rules.

Many just resign if they decide to change parties.

[masraum]

Hmm, not really the same as being a democrat, republican or liberal. I don't think republicans lynch democrats or hang liberals (not literally at least).

Being a member of a racist group when you're in a position of authority is not a good thing in my mind. Would you want to be black, Hispanic, whatever on that guys cell block? Even if he seemed fair, you'd always be wondering.

Comparing the KKK and racism to political or religious beliefs would be like finding out a doctor at the local hospital is a Nazi, but it's ok because it's just a political belief (would you want to be a jew with a Nazi for a doctor) or a teacher at school is a pedophile and having him compare it to a religious belief. It's just not the same.

Nah, it's a free country, you can be a member of the KKK if you want (yeah, sickening isn't it), but you can't work in certain jobs.

[on2wheels52]

Can the Klan be called a fraternal organization? I hadn't thought of it that way but there's similarities.
I think they should have left that can of worms closed. Are they going to come up with a list of organizations that are acceptable and those that aren't?
Jim

[GH85Carrera]

The KKK is a group of ignorant losers. How are they different from the Muslims here in America that preach death to all non Muslims especially the Jews. Both groups hate the Jewish. Can the sheriff's department fire a Muslim because he goes to a Mosque that has a radical Imam? How about a Muslim that starts going to the mosque on a regular basis and insists on praying at work during the day?

I don't see the difference real between them.

You are right it is a difficult question.

[Dueller]

Hmmmm. I suspect there's a bit more to the story. Employer is being quite mum. I don't think its the fact that government employees are "at will" employees (normally only applies to political appointment positions). Usually pursuant to due process requirements (i.e., job is considered a property right), at least with regard to permannet employees you can only be terminated for cause(as opposed to temporary or probationary employees).

In any state or federal position you must take a loyalty oath that you will protect and defend the state/federal constitution against any enemies, foreiign or domestic. If I hadda guess his activities within the organization were construed as violating such allegiance/loyalty requirements.

[Christien]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

The KKK is a group of ignorant losers. How are they different from the Muslims here in America that preach death to all non Muslims especially the Jews. Both groups hate the Jewish. Can the sheriff's department fire a Muslim because he goes to a Mosque that has a radical Imam? How about a Muslim that starts going to the mosque on a regular basis and insists on praying at work during the day?

I don't see the difference real between them.

You are right it is a difficult question.

They're not any different, if the leader of that muslim church fits the definition of a terrorist (i.e. one who advocates and incites acts of violence against another group based on religion, race or creed). And yes, I would think the sheriff's dept could fire that person on perfectly legal and legitimate grounds. Now if it was just a muslim who attended a regular, non-violent mosque, like the vast majority do, then no, you couldn't fire him, even if he wanted to pray at work, I don't think.

The test here is whether the political/religious organization advocates violence and/or hate crimes. An extremist mosque does. The KKK does. A regular mosque/church/synagogue does not. The Republican and Democratic parties do not. Seems fairly straightforward to me.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Dueller

Hmmmm. I suspect there's a bit more to the story. Employer is being quite mum.

My guess is that they are trying to head off future problems at the path. If the wrong person finds out about it and brought it up in the wrong way, it would be a HUGE PR nightmare. Imagine, a minority inmate finding out and making up some false accusations and then the ACLU and half a dozen TV stations are crawling all over the place. Then, they find out that the place knew about it. So suddenly, some one thinking "It doesn't seem to be affecting his work, what he does in his own time isn't my problem." has turned been turned into by the sensationalist News agencies "The whole place from the highest Administrative levels down is racist and has been covering it up!" Then every other minority that's been there in 20 years is on the news and sewing for millions.

I think it's more of a CYA thing on the part of the employer.

Originally Posted by Christien

The test here is whether the political/religious organization advocates violence and/or hate crimes. An extremist mosque does. The KKK does. A regular mosque/church/synagogue does not. The Republican and Democratic parties do not. Seems fairly straightforward to me.

Exactly

[Moses]

Imagine the liability when a Klansman corrections offer gets accused of harassing or abusing minority prisoners. If I were a taxpayer in that county, I'd press hard to have the idiot dismissed.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

"Some of those who work forces are the same who burn crosses"

Truth is weirder than fiction sometimes.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Moses

Imagine the liability when a Klansman corrections offer gets accused of harassing or abusing minority prisoners. If I were a taxpayer in that county, I'd press hard to have the idiot dismissed.

Just what I was thinking. Once the administration became aware of his membership it opens them to tremendous risk should an "incident" occur.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

"Some of those who work forces are the same who burn crosses"

Truth is weirder than fiction sometimes.

Killing in the name of.

Zach wrote a lot of good stuff.

[Racerbvd]

Hmmm. I suspect there's a bit more to the story. Employer is being quite mum. I don't think its the fact that government employees are "at will" employees (normally only applies to political appointment positions). Usually pursuant to due process requirements (i.e., job is considered a property right), at least with regard to permannet employees you can only be terminated for cause(as opposed to temporary or probationary employees).

In any state or federal position you must take a loyalty oath that you will protect and defend the state/federal constitution against any enemies, foreiign or domestic. If I hadda guess his activities within the organization were construed as violating such allegiance/loyalty requirements.

The sad things, out in that area, there is a lot of kkk crap in the surrounding areas around GAINESVILLE, so if there is "one" working there, chances are there are many more
Chances are they fired this guy because they though he was weak and might do the right thing(turn in other kkk members)....

Too bad they didn't feed this clown to a few inmates..

[M.D. Holloway]

All the more reason to privatize prisons - becomes a moot point then.

[sammyg2]

His business is his business. if he has violated a law, he deserves the punishment. If his ACTIONS have created a legitimate hostile work environment, he deserves disciplinary action.
But his membership in a legal group is NO ONE else's business until it causes him to violate someone else's rights, which it did not.

how about if we get every single person fired who is or ever was a member of La Raza, Or the southern Christian coalition (MLK) or the rainbow coalition (rev. Jesse) or the trinity Church of Christ (obama's former church) or al Sharpton's pentecostal church, or the black panther party, or the Arian brotherhood, or everyone associated with the teachings of Malcolm X and everyone who has ever donated or had anything to do with the NAACP? That'd go over really big.
These are all groups that promote the benefit of one race over others. Just like the KKK. Fair is fair.
We might even want to throw in the students for a democratic society (communists) or the communist party, or anyone who approves of communism or socialism., Those are as subversive as they get.
Heck Even Obama and pelosi could be considered subversives.

I do not approve of the KKK. I do not agree with or condone anything they say, do, or believe in. But it is not up to me or anyone else to tell them what they can or can't do as long as they do not commit a crime or violate someone else's civil rights.
Yes he's a dumass but he has that right.
There was a time when the KKK was a subversive organization. A long, long time ago.

of course there are some of us (the ones standing on the left) who really think that it is up to them to tell everyone else how to live and what to think.

They can all collective kiss my butt (the left cheek)

[Crowbob]

This Klansman, this Mr. Kerschner, should have been a Democrat senator instead of a prison guard.

[McLovin]

"A prison guard who acknowledged being a member of white supremacist group the Ku Klux Klan has been fired for belonging to a subversive or terrorist organization, a violation of the county agency's code of ethics."

If that is all the facts, (i.e., his only reason for firing was because of membership in the KKK), my guess is he would win in a lawsuit against his former employer for wrongful termination.

The US Supreme Court does not view the KKK as a "subversive" or "terrorist" organization. Heck, one of the members (Hugo Black) of the Supreme Court was a KKK member.