Have you ever accepted a counter offer? (long)
 

When I took the job I have now they said everything I ever wanted to hear.

It was a good deal; I liked it very much and for a few years it was the best job I ever had.

Then, about a year ago things went drastically south. We had a huge layoff that caught many of my middle managers off guard while I was on vacation. When I came back and was told I was safe I certainly didn't feel like it.

Then they announced an outsourcing initiative - we're already outsourced in a bunch of areas throughout the company - I'm in IT so it isn't new. It was announced as a 'research project' to see if it was feasible - if it is - we'll likely get hired by the incoming company. 'likely.'

I was given a retention bonus that kept me keen for a few months. Once that paid out however, I wanted to wait out things because I was close to the mark that would save me from having to pay back a considerable sum of money to the company. Plus if they let me go - I get to go free and clear of the debt.

Prior to the retention bonus I did do some interviewing - a friend set me up with a very promising interview. He went over and above for it - more than I asked him to. Since he's in sales it - there was some interest in him having placed me there but I like to think that his interest was in our friendship. He's been there for me in the past at this level but our friendship is mostly business based. We simply don't live close enough for it to be much more than that.

The interviews went okay - I did well in them but the employer left a hard after taste in my mouth so to speak. They were talking an outrageous amount of money though...

So, after two interviews they decide that they want to expand their search beyond word of mouth and start looking in earnest for someone to fill the position. I was okay with it because their stalling got me my retention bonus. Their stalling allowed me to work on some certs for my resume - one was really hard though and I failed - twice. I'm still working on it.

In the meantime I start chatting up a new manager who I work closely with - he wants to bring me into his group permanently. This move would take me OUT of the outsourcing path I believe for the long term. We continue to talk and I tell him to get it done, I'm ready. He says 'ok.' Still - 6 weeks go by and HR is road blocking him. He's new - trying to play it cool...

Next the other company comes back to me, months later - having been unable to find someone to fill the role and offers me the job. The salary however is significantly lower than we had originally discussed. I counter and they counter and we basically meet half way. I accept the offer and we agree on a start date which due to some planned holiday travel is about 5 weeks away. It's now 3 weeks away.

This week I gave my notice at my current position - I did not do it as a negotiating tool.

The new manager who wanted me to work for him simply couldn't get things through HR fast enough - I didn't do it to put pressure on him. I had a good offer and I was ready to go. I wasn't terribly happy about it though - while the last year was very tough I had really liked things before that. It's hard to let that go.

I had originally told the new manager that I wanted two things - an employment agreement to protect me in a layoff and a certain percentage more salary. Nothing terrible but double digits - less than the new company was offering me now.

Back to this week, giving notice - he pulls me into his office and asks should he bother continuing. I told him - and I wonder if this was a mistake - I'll listen to anything you have to say.

So, he goes to work. I tell him that without the employment agreement we will need to come up with something else that will make me feel 'safe' in staying. I suggest that he arrange to pay for the cert I've been working toward (a significant expense so far) and the next one I planned on. These would fit right in with my job however so it's an easy 'yes' for him. Now he's got to work on the money bits...


It's taken him a bit but I'm expecting the counter offer tomorrow morning.

The pros of accepting it are these as I see it:

*Flexibility - I can work from home quite a bit
*Short commute - I live 2 miles from work now - the new job is an hour away each way.
*Great benefits at reasonable prices
*Family friendly company
*Job enhancing training
*Interesting work
*Short work week
*Generous holiday schedule
*discounts on products (which is very good for me)
*Greatly reduced on call exposure


The cons of accepting:

*The outsourcing of my friends will be something I have to watch
*I have to deal with this company still - I've lost some respect for it over the last year
*I'll have to deal with the repercussions of backing out of the job offer I have - my reputation will be damaged.
*Damage to a solid business friendship which I really REALLY need.
*Unknown damage to my future opportunities


The pros of the new job:

*Well, I'm not sure - to be honest I never was that excited about it. It was a job to get me out of the one I'm in - into something I thought was more stable.
*More money
*Interesting work - the jobs are virtually the same with the exception of the 'hands on part'
*Reasonable training opportunities

Cons:

*Benefits are terribly expensive
*Long commute with terrible parking
*longer hours, longer work week
*maintaining and operational on call situation where I am the 'go to guy' and if things fail I HAVE to respond
*No ability to work from home.

I'm having a little trouble with the ethical bits of the whole thing. I accepted an offer already and I hate the idea of backing out. Still - I feel like it is the best thing for me and that is important as well. I've seen it done before but I've never done it before. I've never thought that much of it myself when I've seen it - I didn't respect it but I could understand the deal. Still - I worry about the damage I could do to my future by accepting the counter. It's a small world out there... The reality is I was unimpressed with the two guys who would be my immediate managers. I was willing to over look this when I NEEDED to get out but even though I NEEDED To get out I really wished I didn't.

I just thought I would throw this on the wall here...see what sticks...

I have nothing to offer really except to say that seems like a lot of work just for work.

I think I might be more confused now. SmileWavy

I do have a tendency to over think things...

Is it just work? I'm trying to provide for my family and all that - opportunities a slim these days...

As you already found out it was a real bad move to negotiate a counter offer after signing for the new job. Now you are stuck - whatever you do, will piss someone off and will definitely damage your reputation. Even though you see this point, you probably underestimate the problems this may cause you in the future, especially with today's efficient online networking tools!

To minimize damage, my vote is for the new company. You can tell the old that you had to go, the offer would have expired and the uncertainty / conditions still weren't good enough.

Leaving the current company will only piss off the guy that tried to keep you on board. The facts of what exactly happened aren't as clear either. "didn't reach an agreement in the counter offer negotiations" is all that needs to be said here, compared to "walked out on a signed job offer".

Walking away from a signed offer will create very big damage, even if you don't have a business friend make the connection. It's like you aren't showing up to the wedding - lame and a huge PITA for the new company / hiring manager.

Another con of staying at your current company that you don't mention is that you will be black-balled as a quitter / blackmailer. I have seen situations where this led to being on the poopy list during the next lay off. Not with the guy countering, but his boss or his replacement. You did lose some trust here - someone that just wants better conditions doesn't walk in with a resignation letter.

Hope this helps?

George

What cert did you fail? PM me if you don't want to say here.

Stick to your guns. You gave your notice. Leave. As much of a "nice guy" as your new manager is, if you change your mind you'll lose the network reference from your friend and you'll be labeled as a troublemaker/pussy at your current job, especially if your current manager ever leaves or gets laid off (which from the sounds of it, isn't too far out of the question).

Better to take a job where you're moderately unhappy but have security right now than take one you like but leaves you in a vulnerable spot. I'm in exactly that situation now. I had to uproot my family and move across the country to take a job that I kinda' like but kinda' don't. But it's uber-stable and I seriously doubt I'm going anywhere anytime soon. I know I could probably be making a little more $$$ too (especially if I went into private practice, as has always been my dream) but right now it's simply too unstable out there.

A bird in the hand...

Count your blessings - there are a lot of people who would love to have your problem right now.

I've gotta assume it was CCIE - Security. Mike's pretty sharp, but that's a tough one.

I was wondering myself.

Wow, that is really tough. The pros and cons seem fairly even in a weird sort of way. I was countered when I left my last company. I told them what I wanted to stay, they didn't get close. The commute here was longer and the parking a bit of a pain, but it still worked out well in the end. My old company has asked me back about 4-5 times. I stuck with my original plan (leaving) and it worked out well.

It's hard, impossible even to really know which is the absolute best option. None of us have working crystal balls. Because of that, you can second guess yourself forever. You never know, the new job may work out to be better than you think, and who knows what another year or three have in store for you.

Go with your gut. Good luck.

From what you said about this new employer, Mikester, I feel uneasy. I would give your new manager in your existing company a chance. If you feel his offer is worthwhile, I would recommend you stay. Just my 2 pesos.

Mike,

Interesting situation; here are my thoughts...

If your current job signs on the dotted line on how they are willing to keep you there, do it. Life is short and a job is a job, you should always try to do something you like. As far as the other (new) job, hopefully they are professionals and tell them you are sorry but your current employeer made you an offer that was to good to pass up and you have a lot of loyality to them.

If the new job gets pissed too bad, I can't see any future employeer getting upset because you were loyal to your current company..

Good luck (Was it CCIE? I'm workin on mine too)

Agree with much of this.

But maybe quality of life trumps absolute $$ and security....

This kinda **** is why i don't live/work in the big city any more.

Like George said you are now in the position of potentially pissing someone off and dinging your rep regardless of which position you decide to keep. So that one's done, it's a wash, take it off the decision table.

Based on your +/- list I say stay with the current gig.

I also work in an industry where there are a constant/consistent core group of players. The kind of business where generally if you screw someone you are done. But depending on who you are and who you screwed it is sometimes forgiven.

A good friend/former co-worker took a high profile gig with a high profile company then took an offer from another co 3 weeks later. We all kind of went tsk,tsk, bad move. We did not like what she did but she was also not known as a mercenary. We knew it had to be a difficult decision and she knew how bad it could make things for her.

It's been a couple of years now and it's been forgotten.

Don't worry about what your employer thinks... you are way less important to them then you think...

In all likelihood, 6 months to a year after you leave, you and your contributions will be totally forgotten. A year later, if you call for a reference, the human resources department will likley just verify your time of employment and paygrade...

My wife went through this. Worked at a place for 6-7 years, and left. 1 year later the managers couldn't recall much about her, and most of her freinds had been let go...

Its not personal. Figure out whats best for you...

Do what is right for you.

Companies today will do what is right for them.

Stay w/ original Company. Too many positives.

A few thoughts Remember you're an empoyee at will, so do what's best for you.

You didn't really say anything negative about your current company other than the fact that that you were worried about your job. The new one though didn't really sound appetizing to you, just my guy feel.

It's a tough call for sure, but don't let your answer to the new place force you to go if you've decidede to stay, remember look out for number 1. Sure they'll be pissed, but tough... Sounds like you weren't #1 on their list for that position so your opportunities may be less anyway.

I gave my notice to my current boss about seven years ago, but with a chance for him to counter. He did and I had about a 40% raise by the end of the day. But then I was kind of worried if I'd be the first to be cut if they had to cut folks. I got lucky. Still, once your current boss knows you're looking, even if they counter to keep you, you could be damaged goods and especially if your boss gets replaced. As much a love-hate relationship as I have with my boss, if he left, I'd not last a day there.

Great point. If they had to look around some more, and then they offered less what had originally been discussed, who knows how stable that job will really be. Something could happen and they could be laying people off in 6 months or they could think they found someone better.

WHen I was going through something similar about 2 years ago, several people gave me the same advice concerning "do what's best for you". You've got to find the right balance between money and a pleasant work environment/experience. And that balance can shift over time. Sometimes, the money may be most important, and sometimes the money may slide down the scale and the work/environment may slide up the scale.

I would go to the new place.
1. You accepted the offer, so your reputation is involved.
2. It is more money, you want to keep moving up the pay scale.
3. You don't really know what the new place is like or what the old place will turn into.
4. You have no job security at either place. Paying for some certifications is not security.

Other factors: How long have you been at the old place, is it "time for a change"? Is the new place doing well/badly, growing/shrinking?

Maybe it is just me, but I personally would not let the following stuff drive my decision. You're trying to get ahead in your career, not work from home.

*Flexibility - I can work from home quite a bit
*Great benefits at reasonable prices
*Family friendly company
*Job enhancing training
*Short work week
*Generous holiday schedule
*discounts on products (which is very good for me)

I'm not even sure I'd let a 5 min vs 1 hour commute drive my decision. >1 hour, yeah.

I guess it depends on how you feel about commuting. Personally, you'd have to pay be a sheetload of money to get me to drive 2 hours a day vs. zero hours a day.

How much more money is the new job? At $0.50/mile (2010 IRS guideline) that is going to cost you....what ~$50/day (assuming you average 50mph. Could be $70/day at 70mph average) plus more meals eating out perhaps over eating at home. So I'm guessing your break-even is around $14K-$20K per year for a commute like that.

So subtract $14K-$20K from the new job offer and that is the real "raise" you will be getting.

I wouldn't worry too much about the reputation thing if you choose not to accept the job you accepted. Business is a full-contact sport and they know that.

A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do ;)

Unless you're a 1099 guy, I don't think I'd use the IRS's mileage reimbursement to calculate the cost of a commute. My commute in DC was about an hour each way, whether I took the Metro or drove. Driving was way cheaper, especially if my wife came with me. But I have saved a ton of money working from home now. I make my own lunch every day, usually leftovers, which saves $7-$8 per day. In addition to having zero commute and all the money that saves, I have my sanity back. I don't think I could ever do a daily commute again. I need to keep this job. I'll expense mileage when I ride my bike to LA and Vegas in the next two weeks. I'll probably end up with close to 10x my actually fuel costs.

I was going to offer to help, but if its the CCIE.....yer on your own son! :D

Hmm, those can be big factors. For some folks, work/job/career is all about the money, completely about the $$$. For me, that's certainly at the top of the list, but there are other factors as well. Several of these can get extra priority if you have small kids. I don't, but lots of people do.

"Flexibility, working from home" -- For some, especially those with small kids and/or a working partner, this could be huge. For me, it's way down the list.
"Great benefits at reasonable prices" -- This is a big deal and can mean a big difference in your bottom line. I once got a job offer for a company that was $20k more than my current salary. The new place had no 401k matching, and very expensive insurance. The old place had decent 401k matching, plus a free cell phone and free broadband at the house. All in all, the net after subtracting the insurance from the new place, and adding in the perks from the old place made the move a wash financially.

"Family friendly company" -- Again, especially for folks with small kids, this can be huge.

"Job enhancing training" -- This can be the equivalent of $3-10k a year

"Short Work Week" -- This sounds really good. I'd love to work 4-10s. And, again, for folks with families, especially little kids, this could be huge.

"Generous Holiday schedule" -- Yeah, again, this would be great. If a job prospect was good and had 15 or 20 days of holidays a year, that would be a huge perk. Again, probably a huge deal for people with little kids.

"discounts on products" -- This could affect the bottom line. How much are you likely to buy, and how much will you save? It may not matter at all, or it could add up to a bunch.

5min commute vs 1hr. Wow, that's huge. That means that your day is now 24 - 8 for sleep, -11 (minimum) for work, and then probably another 1hr to get up and get ready for work in the morning. That leaves you with 4hrs a day that are your own. Or, if your commute is 5 minutes, your you time would be almost 6hrs a day. That's a huge difference. Over the course of a year thats around 500 hours, that's 20 days. That's a lot of time to be living life compared to being stuck in traffic.

Yes, my primary driving factor right now is $$$. But a crappy commute would make a $10k raise seem like no raise at all.

Assume 100 miles/day at 20mpg at $3/gal that is $15/day, 250 working days/yr, that is $2750/yr. Maybe $1200/yr parking?

Then there's extra 25K miles/year on the car, how to value that is tricky. If you say its a $30K car and call 25K one year's wear and tear, maybe $30K/8 = $3750/yr?

So maybe $7700/yr?

Factor in another $3k in therapy sessions to deal with your road rage ;)

I'm sorry but I just HATE a commute. What about the opportunity cost? What else would you be doing with 250 days * 2 hours = 500 hours per year?

You could rebuild a couple Porsche engines with that time! Or learn a language...or hit the gym for 2 hours a day. Ha. You'd be buff, baby.

Got kids? What about time with them?

For a lot of folks on this board, that's probably a big one. Anyone with kids younger that 12, or maybe even a little older probably values family time A LOT.

The certificate I failed was the CCIE Routing and Switching not security. My intentions are to think about a second CCIE when it comes time for me to re-certify the first (every 2 years). It was frustrating when I tried recently and I can go into more detail on it for those who care outside of this thread if you like. I haven't given up.

Regarding the commute - I've done long commutes. They are workable but I have two very young kids. With working 5 minutes from home I am able to spend nearly 75% more time with them than I would with an hour commute. With an hour commute I would miss the morning and get home just in time to put them to bed. Plus I'm on call for my position, I get called often enough for it to be a burden so that takes time away from my family as well. That time is important to me.

The current company is very generous with family time and general 'work-life balance', I have a complete home office network connection with IP phone and all. The new boss is of the opinion (and he has expressed it) that if I am not within arms reach of him then I am not working.

I'm actually surprised that so many of you said it was okay for me to stay. I'm a boy scout - I don't like going back on my word but as many have pointed out the business would not hesitate to let me go. I've witnessed it here already with folks who I felt were in the same class of employee as I feel I am. Those hurt - badly.



The counter offer this morning wasn't quite what I asked for but it was more AND less.

Why does HR have to make things more complicated...what I asked for was simple. what the came back with was actually more upfront but the long term $$$ are based on 'promise of promotion at the end of the year if my performance warrants it'. Now I can work with that because they do have pretty good performance review processes but if things don't go my way then again we will be in the situation where I am at the very least irritated. they are willing to put the 'promise' in writing but the way it is written means if my performance does not warrant it - somehow they could say no.


pffft. Irritating.

Being downsized leads to a lot of family time too . . .

I figure if your wife stays at home the kids are getting lots of time, it'd be great if dad could be home a lot too but the career comes first. I guess I'm just a bad dad.

Seriously, when my kids were young (<5 y/o) I worked 12 hrs/day and traveled 30% of the time. Now the kids are 10 and 14 y/o and I work 12 hrs/day but travel <10% of the time. It hasn't hurt our kids nor our relationship. But my wife did have to give up her career.

Dunno, sounds like the ideal would be to find a job that pays more and is near home, so maybe the question is, which of these jobs is the best to hold until you do find that ideal job? Remember that your current salary often sets a baseline for the next salary.

There are no guarantees in the workplace. "Job security" is a fallacy, and in fact "security" in general is a pipe dream. The sooner you accept that, the easier it will be to make an informed decision imho.

In this economy, I would be more worried about long term employment (job security) than anything else. Take the job which offers the most security. You have not started the new job. You can still pull out. Look out for yourself.

Were I in your shoes, I wouldn't go to the new place. While I hate to go back on an agreement, this would be a deal-killer for me. My boss currently knows that I'm working no matter where I am and has no need for me to be in his proximity. If someone values face time more than productivity, I don't want to work for/with them.

Completely agree with this. Nothing is like it used to be. DO what will be best for you, and don't worry about the hurt feelings. This is BUSINESS.

The new boss is of the opinion (and he has expressed it) that if I am not within arms reach of him then I am not working.

Just saw this. Hmm. I don't like that. Not in the long run.

I don't and didn't like it either. I have been in the situation before and been able to turn it completely around into something that was near awesome - twice. My gut tells me that this situation might be different.

I'm starting to regret even accepting the offer - I 'accepted' a lot of things that I simply wouldn't have normally done in a normal economy/job situation. I think the impact of this outsourcing deal and some other factors really compromised my ability to think clearly on it.

While what I told them it would take for a successful counter (I did not ask for a counter offer) - they came back with a complex package. I do think it all adds up though it's just one bit that could bite me - the promise of a promotion. I've been promised promotions a few times - where I am currently I was promised one within 6 months of starting and it never happened. So...I told the manager that - I don't want to be pissed off going into 2011...

He said it would be dependent on my getting the certs I am working toward anyway so as long as it is in writing - I guess that's the best I can get outside of actually getting it.

That would have been a deal breaker for me from the get go. I've worked for people like that. If you truly want to understand misery then go for it.

Yeah, it sounds like the new job has the possibility of being unpleasant to say the least. Based on what I've read, unless money is really tight right now and you REALLY need the extra money from the new place, I'd probably want to stay. It does suck to say one thing and then back out of it, but then, these aren't the olden days. It's all about the bottom line for them. The people rarely matter.

It's too bad that the old job didn't come through with what you wanted. You can always try to counter their counter to see if they can sweeten it a bit. As far as I'm concerned, the promise of "we'll give you more money someday" is meaningless. Besides, when you get your CCIE (when not if, I've got confidence in you) you'll be able to go where you want.

Some people are ok with it, some aren't. I can't say because I've never had a little one of my own.

I didn't say anything about spending or not spending time with the kids making anyone a good or bad parent. But I do know from a lot of my friends that have little kids, that lots of people find time with the kids VERY important.

My boss has a two hour commute each way, but feels like he has to be in the office. His attitude is that, if he can do it, then no one who lives closer than he does has any room to complain about the commute and work from home. Though the job is totally doable from home. I got around that by moving to Phoenix, where we have no office. Never been happier and haven't seen the boss for almost two years.

Spoken like a true musician. :)

I accepted a counter offer a number of years ago, staying with the devil I knew. I found out later that it was the right decision - for me.

Trust your gut.