Have you ever accepted a counter offer? (long)

[mikester]

When I took the job I have now they said everything I ever wanted to hear.

It was a good deal; I liked it very much and for a few years it was the best job I ever had.

Then, about a year ago things went drastically south. We had a huge layoff that caught many of my middle managers off guard while I was on vacation. When I came back and was told I was safe I certainly didn't feel like it.

Then they announced an outsourcing initiative - we're already outsourced in a bunch of areas throughout the company - I'm in IT so it isn't new. It was announced as a 'research project' to see if it was feasible - if it is - we'll likely get hired by the incoming company. 'likely.'

I was given a retention bonus that kept me keen for a few months. Once that paid out however, I wanted to wait out things because I was close to the mark that would save me from having to pay back a considerable sum of money to the company. Plus if they let me go - I get to go free and clear of the debt.

Prior to the retention bonus I did do some interviewing - a friend set me up with a very promising interview. He went over and above for it - more than I asked him to. Since he's in sales it - there was some interest in him having placed me there but I like to think that his interest was in our friendship. He's been there for me in the past at this level but our friendship is mostly business based. We simply don't live close enough for it to be much more than that.

The interviews went okay - I did well in them but the employer left a hard after taste in my mouth so to speak. They were talking an outrageous amount of money though...

So, after two interviews they decide that they want to expand their search beyond word of mouth and start looking in earnest for someone to fill the position. I was okay with it because their stalling got me my retention bonus. Their stalling allowed me to work on some certs for my resume - one was really hard though and I failed - twice. I'm still working on it.

In the meantime I start chatting up a new manager who I work closely with - he wants to bring me into his group permanently. This move would take me OUT of the outsourcing path I believe for the long term. We continue to talk and I tell him to get it done, I'm ready. He says 'ok.' Still - 6 weeks go by and HR is road blocking him. He's new - trying to play it cool...

Next the other company comes back to me, months later - having been unable to find someone to fill the role and offers me the job. The salary however is significantly lower than we had originally discussed. I counter and they counter and we basically meet half way. I accept the offer and we agree on a start date which due to some planned holiday travel is about 5 weeks away. It's now 3 weeks away.

This week I gave my notice at my current position - I did not do it as a negotiating tool.

The new manager who wanted me to work for him simply couldn't get things through HR fast enough - I didn't do it to put pressure on him. I had a good offer and I was ready to go. I wasn't terribly happy about it though - while the last year was very tough I had really liked things before that. It's hard to let that go.

I had originally told the new manager that I wanted two things - an employment agreement to protect me in a layoff and a certain percentage more salary. Nothing terrible but double digits - less than the new company was offering me now.

Back to this week, giving notice - he pulls me into his office and asks should he bother continuing. I told him - and I wonder if this was a mistake - I'll listen to anything you have to say.

So, he goes to work. I tell him that without the employment agreement we will need to come up with something else that will make me feel 'safe' in staying. I suggest that he arrange to pay for the cert I've been working toward (a significant expense so far) and the next one I planned on. These would fit right in with my job however so it's an easy 'yes' for him. Now he's got to work on the money bits...


It's taken him a bit but I'm expecting the counter offer tomorrow morning.

The pros of accepting it are these as I see it:

*Flexibility - I can work from home quite a bit
*Short commute - I live 2 miles from work now - the new job is an hour away each way.
*Great benefits at reasonable prices
*Family friendly company
*Job enhancing training
*Interesting work
*Short work week
*Generous holiday schedule
*discounts on products (which is very good for me)
*Greatly reduced on call exposure


The cons of accepting:

*The outsourcing of my friends will be something I have to watch
*I have to deal with this company still - I've lost some respect for it over the last year
*I'll have to deal with the repercussions of backing out of the job offer I have - my reputation will be damaged.
*Damage to a solid business friendship which I really REALLY need.
*Unknown damage to my future opportunities


The pros of the new job:

*Well, I'm not sure - to be honest I never was that excited about it. It was a job to get me out of the one I'm in - into something I thought was more stable.
*More money
*Interesting work - the jobs are virtually the same with the exception of the 'hands on part'
*Reasonable training opportunities

Cons:

*Benefits are terribly expensive
*Long commute with terrible parking
*longer hours, longer work week
*maintaining and operational on call situation where I am the 'go to guy' and if things fail I HAVE to respond
*No ability to work from home.

I'm having a little trouble with the ethical bits of the whole thing. I accepted an offer already and I hate the idea of backing out. Still - I feel like it is the best thing for me and that is important as well. I've seen it done before but I've never done it before. I've never thought that much of it myself when I've seen it - I didn't respect it but I could understand the deal. Still - I worry about the damage I could do to my future by accepting the counter. It's a small world out there... The reality is I was unimpressed with the two guys who would be my immediate managers. I was willing to over look this when I NEEDED to get out but even though I NEEDED To get out I really wished I didn't.

I just thought I would throw this on the wall here...see what sticks...

[Gogar]

I have nothing to offer really except to say that seems like a lot of work just for work.

[mikester]

Originally Posted by Gogar

I have nothing to offer really except to say that seems like a lot of work just for work.

I think I might be more confused now.

I do have a tendency to over think things...

Is it just work? I'm trying to provide for my family and all that - opportunities a slim these days...

[aigel]

As you already found out it was a real bad move to negotiate a counter offer after signing for the new job. Now you are stuck - whatever you do, will piss someone off and will definitely damage your reputation. Even though you see this point, you probably underestimate the problems this may cause you in the future, especially with today's efficient online networking tools!

To minimize damage, my vote is for the new company. You can tell the old that you had to go, the offer would have expired and the uncertainty / conditions still weren't good enough.

Leaving the current company will only piss off the guy that tried to keep you on board. The facts of what exactly happened aren't as clear either. "didn't reach an agreement in the counter offer negotiations" is all that needs to be said here, compared to "walked out on a signed job offer".

Walking away from a signed offer will create very big damage, even if you don't have a business friend make the connection. It's like you aren't showing up to the wedding - lame and a huge PITA for the new company / hiring manager.

Another con of staying at your current company that you don't mention is that you will be black-balled as a quitter / blackmailer. I have seen situations where this led to being on the poopy list during the next lay off. Not with the guy countering, but his boss or his replacement. You did lose some trust here - someone that just wants better conditions doesn't walk in with a resignation letter.

Hope this helps?

George

[HardDrive]

What cert did you fail? PM me if you don't want to say here.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Stick to your guns. You gave your notice. Leave. As much of a "nice guy" as your new manager is, if you change your mind you'll lose the network reference from your friend and you'll be labeled as a troublemaker/pussy at your current job, especially if your current manager ever leaves or gets laid off (which from the sounds of it, isn't too far out of the question).

Better to take a job where you're moderately unhappy but have security right now than take one you like but leaves you in a vulnerable spot. I'm in exactly that situation now. I had to uproot my family and move across the country to take a job that I kinda' like but kinda' don't. But it's uber-stable and I seriously doubt I'm going anywhere anytime soon. I know I could probably be making a little more $$$ too (especially if I went into private practice, as has always been my dream) but right now it's simply too unstable out there.

A bird in the hand...

Count your blessings - there are a lot of people who would love to have your problem right now.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by HardDrive

What cert did you fail? PM me if you don't want to say here.

I've gotta assume it was CCIE - Security. Mike's pretty sharp, but that's a tough one.

I was wondering myself.

[masraum]

Wow, that is really tough. The pros and cons seem fairly even in a weird sort of way. I was countered when I left my last company. I told them what I wanted to stay, they didn't get close. The commute here was longer and the parking a bit of a pain, but it still worked out well in the end. My old company has asked me back about 4-5 times. I stuck with my original plan (leaving) and it worked out well.

It's hard, impossible even to really know which is the absolute best option. None of us have working crystal balls. Because of that, you can second guess yourself forever. You never know, the new job may work out to be better than you think, and who knows what another year or three have in store for you.

Go with your gut. Good luck.

[Jim Richards]

From what you said about this new employer, Mikester, I feel uneasy. I would give your new manager in your existing company a chance. If you feel his offer is worthwhile, I would recommend you stay. Just my 2 pesos.

[stealthn]

Mike,

Interesting situation; here are my thoughts...

If your current job signs on the dotted line on how they are willing to keep you there, do it. Life is short and a job is a job, you should always try to do something you like. As far as the other (new) job, hopefully they are professionals and tell them you are sorry but your current employeer made you an offer that was to good to pass up and you have a lot of loyality to them.

If the new job gets pissed too bad, I can't see any future employeer getting upset because you were loyal to your current company..

Good luck (Was it CCIE? I'm workin on mine too)

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by aigel

Walking away from a signed offer will create very big damage, even if you don't have a business friend make the connection. It's like you aren't showing up to the wedding - lame and a huge PITA for the new company / hiring manager.

Another con of staying at your current company that you don't mention is that you will be black-balled as a quitter / blackmailer. I have seen situations where this led to being on the poopy list during the next lay off. Not with the guy countering, but his boss or his replacement. You did lose some trust here - someone that just wants better conditions doesn't walk in with a resignation letter.

Hope this helps?

George

Agree with much of this.

But maybe quality of life trumps absolute $$ and security....

This kinda **** is why i don't live/work in the big city any more.

[stomachmonkey]

Like George said you are now in the position of potentially pissing someone off and dinging your rep regardless of which position you decide to keep. So that one's done, it's a wash, take it off the decision table.

Based on your +/- list I say stay with the current gig.

I also work in an industry where there are a constant/consistent core group of players. The kind of business where generally if you screw someone you are done. But depending on who you are and who you screwed it is sometimes forgiven.

A good friend/former co-worker took a high profile gig with a high profile company then took an offer from another co 3 weeks later. We all kind of went tsk,tsk, bad move. We did not like what she did but she was also not known as a mercenary. We knew it had to be a difficult decision and she knew how bad it could make things for her.

It's been a couple of years now and it's been forgotten.

[bpu699]

Don't worry about what your employer thinks... you are way less important to them then you think...

In all likelihood, 6 months to a year after you leave, you and your contributions will be totally forgotten. A year later, if you call for a reference, the human resources department will likley just verify your time of employment and paygrade...

My wife went through this. Worked at a place for 6-7 years, and left. 1 year later the managers couldn't recall much about her, and most of her freinds had been let go...

Its not personal. Figure out whats best for you...

[Macroni]

Do what is right for you.

Companies today will do what is right for them.

Stay w/ original Company. Too many positives.

[cstreit]

A few thoughts Remember you're an empoyee at will, so do what's best for you.

You didn't really say anything negative about your current company other than the fact that that you were worried about your job. The new one though didn't really sound appetizing to you, just my guy feel.

It's a tough call for sure, but don't let your answer to the new place force you to go if you've decidede to stay, remember look out for number 1. Sure they'll be pissed, but tough... Sounds like you weren't #1 on their list for that position so your opportunities may be less anyway.

[Rick Lee]

I gave my notice to my current boss about seven years ago, but with a chance for him to counter. He did and I had about a 40% raise by the end of the day. But then I was kind of worried if I'd be the first to be cut if they had to cut folks. I got lucky. Still, once your current boss knows you're looking, even if they counter to keep you, you could be damaged goods and especially if your boss gets replaced. As much a love-hate relationship as I have with my boss, if he left, I'd not last a day there.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by cstreit

A few thoughts Remember you're an empoyee at will, so do what's best for you.

You didn't really say anything negative about your current company other than the fact that that you were worried about your job. The new one though didn't really sound appetizing to you, just my guy feel.

It's a tough call for sure, but don't let your answer to the new place force you to go if you've decidede to stay, remember look out for number 1. Sure they'll be pissed, but tough... Sounds like you weren't #1 on their list for that position so your opportunities may be less anyway.

Great point. If they had to look around some more, and then they offered less what had originally been discussed, who knows how stable that job will really be. Something could happen and they could be laying people off in 6 months or they could think they found someone better.

WHen I was going through something similar about 2 years ago, several people gave me the same advice concerning "do what's best for you". You've got to find the right balance between money and a pleasant work environment/experience. And that balance can shift over time. Sometimes, the money may be most important, and sometimes the money may slide down the scale and the work/environment may slide up the scale.

[jyl]

I would go to the new place.
1. You accepted the offer, so your reputation is involved.
2. It is more money, you want to keep moving up the pay scale.
3. You don't really know what the new place is like or what the old place will turn into.
4. You have no job security at either place. Paying for some certifications is not security.

Other factors: How long have you been at the old place, is it "time for a change"? Is the new place doing well/badly, growing/shrinking?

Maybe it is just me, but I personally would not let the following stuff drive my decision. You're trying to get ahead in your career, not work from home.

*Flexibility - I can work from home quite a bit
*Great benefits at reasonable prices
*Family friendly company
*Job enhancing training
*Short work week
*Generous holiday schedule
*discounts on products (which is very good for me)

I'm not even sure I'd let a 5 min vs 1 hour commute drive my decision. >1 hour, yeah.

[TechnoViking]

I guess it depends on how you feel about commuting. Personally, you'd have to pay be a sheetload of money to get me to drive 2 hours a day vs. zero hours a day.

How much more money is the new job? At $0.50/mile (2010 IRS guideline) that is going to cost you....what ~$50/day (assuming you average 50mph. Could be $70/day at 70mph average) plus more meals eating out perhaps over eating at home. So I'm guessing your break-even is around $14K-$20K per year for a commute like that.

So subtract $14K-$20K from the new job offer and that is the real "raise" you will be getting.

I wouldn't worry too much about the reputation thing if you choose not to accept the job you accepted. Business is a full-contact sport and they know that.

A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do

[Rick Lee]

Unless you're a 1099 guy, I don't think I'd use the IRS's mileage reimbursement to calculate the cost of a commute. My commute in DC was about an hour each way, whether I took the Metro or drove. Driving was way cheaper, especially if my wife came with me. But I have saved a ton of money working from home now. I make my own lunch every day, usually leftovers, which saves $7-$8 per day. In addition to having zero commute and all the money that saves, I have my sanity back. I don't think I could ever do a daily commute again. I need to keep this job. I'll expense mileage when I ride my bike to LA and Vegas in the next two weeks. I'll probably end up with close to 10x my actually fuel costs.