Waterboarding
 

This is interesting to see. If we keep political comments to minimum and it can stay in OT and not be forced into PARF.

This is amazing how fast it works!

Water boarding video (under controlled conditions) Pretty intense and a perfect example of the psychological aspects of interrogation. It's not what you believe but what the brain perceives. This reporter wasn't as smart as he thought he was. This isn't what he thought water boarding was like. If you want to know what all the talk is about, here it is. A journalist bet he could take 15 seconds of waterboarding..


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Not pleasant, but not torture...

I’d be curious to know how long the typical water boarding “sessions” last with actual POWs

Incredible,, let's move it PARF cause you know there's gonna be some heated discussion.

A bit of an understatement, don't you think??

I believe it is torture.

Torture, according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture, is:

...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions.
—UN Convention Against Torture

By that definition, yelling at someone is torture.

If you do it intentionally, loud and long enough and it results in severe suffering, yes, it is. (according to the above definition)

(severe is of course a vague term, different interpretations are possible)

I wouldn't call it torture. The are no lasting effects IMHO.

Mental effects are hard to determine.
I think there could be long term, even permanent effects, if the sessions are intense and long enough.
The reporter was freaking out after 4, 5 seconds... that is saying something.
If you take it far enough, you'll do permanent (mental) damage, I think.
Heck, if you prevent someone from breathing long enough.... lights out, for good...

So based on the UN's definition, it's ok to shoot someone for the purpose of eliminating them from this earth, but if you yell at them too long, that's just mean and constitutes torture :confused:

This is war, bad things happen. Whatever happened to the saying, "all is fair in love and war"? If waterboarding or even torturing someone will save the lives of Americans or other allies, why not do it? Heck, if the guy you're waterboarding has the right info, you may even be able to end the war sooner, saving lives on both sides of the battle field.

Following that train of thought, what is more torturous? Causing discomfort to a select few, or forcing thousands to go back out onto the battlefield, not knowing if they'll return.

Hahaha, things are heating up a bit already...

If you don't like the UN definition, how about the dictionary...

tor·ture   /ˈtɔrtʃər/ Show Spelled [tawr-cher] Show IPA noun, verb,-tured, -tur·ing.
–noun

1.the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or forsheer cruelty.
2.a method of inflicting such pain.
3.Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone.
4.extreme anguish of body or mind; agony.
5.a cause of severe pain or anguish.


–verb (used with object)

6.to subject to torture.
7.to afflict with severe pain of body or mind: My back is torturing me.
8.to force or extort by torture: We'll torture the truth from his lips!
9.to twist, force, or bring into some unnatural position or form: trees tortured by storms.
10.to distort or pervert (language, meaning, etc.).

The definition is what it is, like it or not.



I said I think/believe that waterboarding is torture.
Sometimes the situation warrants just that. These are harsh times.
The well-being and safety of many/nations/millions outweighs the comfort of one/few.
My two cents, nothing more.


PS(this thread is not gonna last long here, foggetaboutit)

Yes, wish it away to the cornfield...

It's only ever been used like 6 times.

anyone here been through S.E.R.E. training? how about before 1970? i did it in 1967.
i would assume ALL seal and spec-op personnel have been water-boarded as part of their training. just a thought.

Well i can say that i for one could care less.

And would we really "torture" our own? I doubt it.

It is certainly a long way from what John McCain endured. THAT was torture.

I went in 87, and we were not waterboarded, although there was one there. There were also no spec-ops guys in the class, everyone in my class was a Naval Aviator, Flight Officer or Enlisted Aircrewman. The school I went to was run by Fleet Aviation Special Operations Training Group, not sure if they would have gone to the same school or they ran their own.

Looking at the UN definition though, it could probably be argued that a lot of the stuff they did to us was "Torture".

It wasn't of course.

Seahawk has been waterboarded as part of his military training. So I guess we can do it to our own sailors, but not suspected terrorists. OK

Wouldn't that be part of the "Military Field manuals" then?

So, if you can care less, you are saying that you do care a little??

Snipe, you big softy....:D:D:D

;)

J/K I know what you meant

I went through SERE in 83...water boarding was used as, "theater", generally in front of the whole class.

I was very lucky...I made it to "Freedom Village" during the evasion phase and got a sandwich. They attached a washer to my fatigues, along with the other two guys that made it, and off we went to camp after the evasion cycle was complete. It seems you can't be water boarded within a certain amount of time after eating.

I saw one water boarding during the initial interrogation and was very happy it wasn't me. Resistance phase began.

The next 24 hours in camp was a myriad of hard and soft cell stuff...we had a very good XO who organized the herd very well.

I was WB'd, along with the other two guys that made it to Freedom Village, on the morning of the last day of SERE, more than 24 hours after my snack.

I can tell you the sensation was one of the most unpleasant, yet not painful, experiences if I ever had. I did ok on the first run, not so on the second...this was all done in front of the whole class and frankly I didn't want to embarrass myself, that was first and foremost on my mind. I had also kayaked most of my life so the sensation of water in my oxygen tract was not exactly new. I had to get through the first bucket, that was my goal, my immediate aim.

The purpose of SERE is to instruct, to inform. I learned a lot.

So Paul, you're uniquely qualified here to tell all of us armchair interrogators,, Is it torchure??
And are you ok with it on a terrorist suspect??

One does not need to undergo something to know whether it is torture or not.

And whether he is ok with it being used on a terrorist is not relevant since none of the people that posted in this thread so far are against waterboarding being used as an interrogation technique.

I get the impression that the definition given by the UN has made some of you a bit cranky.
That is not the reason why I posted it.
It is IMO an acurate description of what torturing is. It is not different from the definition in the dictionary, just more elaborated.

Torturing is causing pain, extreme discomfort, physically and or mentally for a number of reasons. The most common one would be extracting information, I guess.

My two cents? Waterboarding is torturing. Cruel? Maybe, but unfortunately it is very necessary. It is not like it is being done for fun, harsh times call for harsh methods.

Your opinions may vary.

Well. I didn't have a choich:)

We have been down this road numerous times: I don't, given the parameters of my experiences, think it is. There are some with equal experience and better insight, that think it is.

Endless debate.

The body of evidence concerning coercive interrogation and the validity of the information gained from those methods is interesting. Not my call. I can tell you that after the second small bucket, my Mother needed to change her name.

Its still being done in training for all Spec Ops guys and flight crews. People who think that waterboarding is torture needs to spend some time in the Middle East and see how they treat their prisoners.

+10000000

LOL. :D

I honestly cared more about the death of Michael (i am a child molester) Jackson than i do about what happens to captured terrorists.

We do it to all our own guys.

So you're ok with doing it to our own personnel, but not the enemy?

This country really has grown soft. If it was up to me i'd let a couple nasty and hungry pit bulls loose on them in a confined space, see how fast they start talking.

Interesting thing to study is how other countries torture. The one that I have heard is one of the worst is in the Middle East where they turn the captive over to the women in the tribe, who then have a free hand to do whatever is needed.

It does not take three guesses as to which parts of the body they focus upon, and they are usually very successful, if the captive survives that is.

I thought it was a new event at the olympics.

I've seen frat party gimmicks that were worse than this.

That's my only real input.

Not saying that it couldn't be horrifying under certain circumstances.

I was waterboardered in 1980 at SEAR school, after 5 days of evasion and living off the land. not eating much (only what we found) sleep deprived, beaten by the enemy, I was willing to say/ do anything after that! so as a torture, it can backfire by answering the interrogators questions by telling them what they want. Not always getting useful information. It doesn't hurt, just makes you thing you are drowning. Not a good feeling.

Severe pain is the key. water boarding, sleep deprivation and the like is discomfort. Now kneecapping may be another story.

I never said that, see my quotes below:

that would include me

Enough said.

I don't think any journalist would volunteer for any real form of torture.

Hell, bungy jumping (or pushing) could be a great enhanced interrogation technique!

So a few journalists have signed up to be waterboarded. I don't think any have signed up to have a car battery hooked up to their testicles, to have limbs removed, or to be beaten for weeks on end...

Chris that is a good point.

I am sure it is very uncomfortable but nothing like having bamboo sticks stuck under your fingernails.

Why are U.S. Military personnel waterboarded?

It's not for the fun of it.

Remember that waterboarding is just a part of pow training for selected military personel who might be captured during combat. Like aircrews and specal ops types. The thought is to simulate as close as possible conditions one might experance if captured and how to handle yourself and resist to the best of your ability. It reenforced me to never be captured!

Part of POW training? Why would it be part of POW training? Please expand.