Be warned! (Response from Paypal)

[Oracle]

I just came across this thread from a different forum... This is serious stuff...

The following email was received from PayPal half-an-hour ago. (February 24 2010 at 2:49 AM)
It relates to the fraudulent act committed by the buyer of a watch I offered for sale and who attempted to reverse his credit card charge immediately after I emailed him to say that I had posted the watch.

PayPal initially denied his attempted reversal.
Several month's passed and then his credit card company advised PayPal that they had received a claim from the card-holder and wanted information on the transaction to back up the information I had originally given PayPal.
This information, which included photographs of the watch prior to its despatch and a description of its condition, was provided a couple of weeks ago to PayPal.

Tonight I get their response; they really pulled out all stops to defend me! Yeah, sure they did!
Read on ....................

================================================== ===========
Hello Bruce Kennewell,

We recently notified you that the buyer asked his or her credit card
company to reverse the charges for a payment you received. The buyer
indicated that the merchandise had one of the following problems:
- It was damaged or defective- It was not as described, or- Services were
not rendered
We carefully reviewed the information you sent to us and determined that we
wont be able to dispute the reversed payment successfully.

Since the credit card company reversed the payment, we have debited $118.00
USD from your PayPal account in order to reimburse the buyer. This is in
accordance with the terms of the PayPal User Agreement.

The credit card company charged a settlement fee, and as a result, we
debited your PayPal account to cover this fee. This is in accordance with
the terms of the PayPal User Agreement.
================================================== ===========


Then followed some information relating to the original claim by Mr. Robert Reinach and this final statement by PayPal:-
================================================== ===========

-----------------------------------
What to Do Next
-----------------------------------

This case is now closed. You dont need to take any additional steps.
================================================== ===========


After reading that, and after counting to 100 and calming down, my response to PayPal was as follows........................



And just how much effort did you put in to standing up for MY rights? How "carefully" you must have reviewed the information that I provided........what did it take, all of three seconds? Did you even LOOK at the photographs of the watch, or read the information I gave about its condition? Did you understand that the reversal was attempted BEFORE he even took delivery of the watch, so how could he have possibly said it wasn't as described or that it was defective?

Paypal, this a pathetic response from you and simply adds reinforcement to the overwhelming opinion across dedicated collector's forums that PayPal/eBay is heavily biased to the purchaser and will invariably side with a claimant, as it is the easy way out.
That this is so is supported by the fact that you have simply plucked US$118.00 from my account and I am advised after the act and have no redress whatsoever.

You people, and the pond-scum who stole my watch AND my money, are beneath contempt.

Sincerely,

Be warned, people.
PayPal and eBay ARE NOT neutral and will take the easy road, and that will just about guarantee that the buyer will always be right.

And sellers outside the USA, beware of Mr. Reinach, of Bremerton, Washington state, as this little play in three acts has shown him to definitely be a scammer of the first order. (I'm sure he wouldn't try this on with anyone IN the North American continent!)

Bruce

[pwd72s]

Long ago I decided to not use paypal...I quit ebay once I learned just what a large fencing operation it is.

[island_dude]

I ended up going through a huge hassle when my AMEX was compromised ones. The perp opened up two AOL accounts and two EBAY/Paypal accounts. I sorted the issue out with AOL in minutes. I worked with AMEX on the paypal charges because they wouldn't deal with me. Months later they put a collection agency on me (for $80) and would not quit until I mailed the CEO of Ebay to tell them how bad there service is. I was not able to contact them except by email, but they would not deal with me unless I emailed from the correct address. The collection agency kept harassing me until Ebay made them stop. After that, I will have as little to do with the company as possible. The TOS are totally unreasonable. Getting someone on the phone is nearly impossible.

[alf]

Actually, it is the seller that is always on the loosing end of the stick when it comes to credit card transactions. They offer the buyer protection by recovering on the seller, and take 3% from the seller for their services.

Paypal got shafted by the CC company and it is easier for them to just pass the buck to the seller. It is sadly how this industry works, you want to sell with their tools you play by their rules.

Karma will take care of the buyer...

[pksystems]

Never leave money in your paypal account. I've found that the criminals definitely know this. So you shouldn't either I only ever use CC with paypal. The guy that didn't leave the funds in his account when he scammed me, I reversed the CC charge. PP didn't like it very much (they banned that CC), but that's what multiple CC's, and email address' are for.

[HardDrive]

I don't deal with any of this crap anymore. E-bay is a joke. I post 'e-mail' only ads on craigslist. I ignore the scammers, and won't ship anything without payment in hand (checks of any kind must clear).

I'm currently selling one of my motorcycles, and the ad says "I'll take cold hard cash as payment. End of story."

[GG Allin]

Doesn't a Postal money order clear up a lot of possible issues? I believe it becomes a federal crime if you try pulling any bs when one is involved in the transaction.

[stevepaa]

typical for paypal, I got stiffed for $400 and they would not do a thing, treated me like a nuisance when I went to their headquarters here to complain.


oh, yeah and now the CEO of ebay/paypal is running for Gov.

[Jeff Higgins]

Any time a transaction if facilitated in any way through the use of the USPS, there is the ability to add "mail fraud" to any charges against a scam artist. In other words, if you mail payment in any form (it does not have to be a Postal Money Order), you can pursue mail fraud charges. Good luck with that one, though.

I filed a complaint with the USPS alledging mail fraud over that Gunbroker deal that went sour on me a few months back that I mentioned in another thread. The Postal Inspector does not pursue individual complaints; they look for "patterns". Even if the interstate sale of firearms is involved...

Speaking of which, Gunbroker finally got back with me over a month after the seller had re-listed and sold the gun. They clearly looked into the dispute between myself and the seller with all of the enthusiasm that PayPal investigated this watch dispute. In their reply to me, after their "investigation", they had simply cut and pasted the seller's feedback comments about me into their "resolution" verbage - "buyer did not send form of payment authorized in auction".

I responded that was absolute b.s., and asked if they had even read my complaint. It was clear to me at that point that Gunbroker had no interest in protecting me, and was there to cover for the sellers (who have paying accounts) rather than the buyers.

Myself, I'll never buy from an on-line auction site ever again. I use PayPal for certain things, but also learned long ago to only use a credit card, and not to leave money in my account. I think a lot of us are coming around full circle on this kind of internet buying. It was kind of novel at first. That has worn off. Not only because of the scam artists, but because of the folks who own the sites that facilitate the scamming. They could give a rat's ass if anyone gets screwed through the use of their site.