Teach me about miter saws
 

There seem to be tons of options, blade size, compound, sliding, dual sliding, etc... Prices run from <$100 to >$500.

I do stuff around the house from time to time. I'm getting ready to replace a bunch of molding (baseboards and casing around windows and doors and some crown molding). Within a couple of years, I'll probably be redoing the molding upstairs.

I'd like a decent quality model with decent performance, but I'm not a carpenter, so I don't need a top of the line shop model.

I just don't want to spend $300 to later find out that I'd have been fine with a $150-200 model. I also don't want to spend $150 to later find out that I got junk.

From what I've seen, "compound" and "sliding" are things that you want, but I bow to your more experienced opinions.

After 12ish years in my first house, I'm tired of using
http://cn1.kaboodle.com/hi/img/2/0/0...AAAAAUMkwg.jpg

Thanks

I've got a home depot, Ryobi with the little laser doo daad (which you can buy at harbor freight and add on to any saw I guess for $3) - I don't recall paying more than $150 for it and I use it for exactly what you're talking about. I'm doing the same thing around my house and without this saw I'd be much less likely to do it. With a nice blade it makes very clean and precise cuts.

If I wanted to splurge I would have gotten a sliding one as it can be more useful in the long run but I didn't.

I use a 12" compound, sliding miter saw and wouldn't trade it for a simpler or smaller version. It really depends on what sort of crown molding you're going to replace and how large it is. The other stuff (base, casing) isn't as demanding.

I use mine for a lot of things other than moldings. This, and a table saw, are two things I couldn't live without.

JR

The larger the blade, the bigger the piece of wood you can cut. If you are looking to cut molding, you do not need anything larger than a 10" blade, and likely a smaller blade will work (depending on the size of your molding).

I would suggest that compound is good (allowing you to cut 45 degrees in either direction) and worthwhile for what you are doing.

Sliding is good too, but it turns your miter saw into a reasonably effective tablesaw with one large draw back being the size of the table. A tablesaw is considered by most to be the most important tool in a woodshop. That being the case, I would suggest getting a REAL tablesaw.

All of that being said, my opinion is that you purchase a compound miter saw. You can get one of these for under $200.00 new and probably less on Craigslist. I would also suggest Craigslist for a tablesaw when the need arises.

Of course, that advise is probably worth what you paid for it...

Hitachi or Dewalt - you can't go wrong with either one. Compound only is readily available for ~$200 where if you include the sliding feature the price goes up another $200 or so. My first saw was a simple Delta compound only - paid something like $100 new for it. It lasted 7 years before it starting having problems and the auto-brake stopped working (deal breaker - very dangerous). I upgraded to a Dewalt $175 saw and have been very happy. Miter saws make short work of moulding and I have installed 2-3 hardwood floors with them. The sliding feature is very handy and allows you to work with larger material. Depending on what type of job you're doing you're gonna want to upgrade the blade - expect to pay $50 for a good one but it makes a HUGE difference. My Father has a sliding Hitachi with nice table top stand - I'm talking the expensive $700 range stuff. Very Very nice.

If you are planning on doing a lot of molding, go with the better quality, and little larger blade. Nothing more frustrating with crown molding than an inaccurate cut. My 12 inch was a little small for the job, and not as precise as I would have liked. Very interested in the recommendations here as I plan on upgrading also!

I have had cheap saws and expensive saws.

I now have a compound sliding 12" Makita and it is wonderful to work with.

Everyone I know who does carpentry has a cheaper style miter saw that they own. Eventually they all come around to borrow my saw for one reason or the other and always state that they hate to give it back.

But you can definitely get by with a cheap saw. After all, it's just a motor with a blade attached to it. Price increases get you better options, a better platform, more powerful motor and brake, more comfortable ergonomics, etc.

One feature that I use a lot is the switch box you can buy that hooks up your shop vac to the power switch on the saw. When the saw is started, the shop vac starts as well. Very nice little add on.

A $69.00 home center special is all that the average homeowner will ever need.

forgot to mention that mine is compound - wouldn't be worth a damned if it wasn't.

Opinion noted, but I just can't imagine that pricepoint being much of a saw.

I did our existing crown molding with the miter box and hand saw that I posted in the original post. Our crown molding is about 4-5" long. It was a huge pain in the arse.

I've got one of these.
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/attac...w-img_0186.jpg

I have to think that either the box or table saw would be as good as the $69 miter.

I've got a bit more budget to work with to get a better saw that will help me get better results and possible eventually cut flooring. I guess I'll have to do some shopping. I've been thinking that Craigslist may be a good place to work if I can find a nice enough model cheap enough.

Right, I can't imagine it working for something like crown molding if it wasn't.

I've owned a Dewalt DW712 for about 5 years...Pure workhorse! Done baseboards, crown molding, door trim..etc..etc. The saw has also been used to cut thin gauge aluminum like bath door frames and most recently my 3" aluminum intercooler piping..

Can't go wrong with Dewalt....my $0.02

I have an older Hitachi 10" compound non-slider and a Milwaukee 12" compound slider. The Hitachi motor is smoother and more quiet. Dust collection is pathetic. The Milwaukee slider handles larger trim easily and the 12" blade can miter (bevel or miter) >5.25" material. The 10 non-slider can barely handle 5.25" base. The Milwaukee's dust collection is quite nice, but still not perfect. I live with it because I am hesitant to dump the cash on a Festool rig.

If I were buying again, the Milwaukee would still be on the shortlist. Makita's 10 or 12" slider would be in the mix, as well. For whatever reason, the newer Hitachi's don't catch my eye, but that doesn't mean you should overlook them.

Don't buy a saw at the top of your budget, necessarily. It's nice to have a second blade for cutting raw lumber and a dedicated blade for trim and woodworking. If you're doing trim work, I recommend one of the coping jigs. It improves the quality of your cope dramatically. I want to try the coping foot some time. In rambling, I am glossing over my point; that is, save some bucks for accessories.

I don't think you must have a slider. It's a nice feature. You can well with a regular saw, but I would definitely get something with a taller fence (at least 4") for cutting crown upside down and backwards.

In short, don't buy the top line model and expect perfection. A lot of times, it's the hack at the controls that's the biggest influence. I'd rather have a good saw with extra blades and a killer workstation instead of a Festool miter saw and nothing else.

A craigslist saw that hasn't been abused would be a great buy at the right price.

OK, it looks like "sliding" may raise the price to more than I want to spend.

What's the difference between compound, compound single-bevel and compound double bevel?

So, miter is the cuts across the wide portion of the wood, and the bevel is cut along the thin side, I think, is that correct?

So compound does miter or bevel. And then single bevel vs double would be a saw that only rotates 1 direction vs both directions?

This is enough saw for anybody. Some guys get spoiled with the sliding ones but This is enough saw to build anything the average homeowner needs. Ive built hundreds of projects from crown molding to birdhouses with one of these and never once did I say "I wish this thing was a sliding one" . Im sure the sliding feature has it merits as does all new features on anything does . But lets not confuse this dude . I dont think he is building a house in the hollywood hills with this thing. He just needs a good all around multi use saw.

The Delta looks nice. Looks like amazing value. Before I saw that link, I saw this

Hitachi 12" Dual Bevel Compound Miter Saw 15A
$269
Shop Hitachi 12" Dual Bevel Compound Miter Saw with Laser Marker at Lowes.com

Which seems like a pretty good deal considering

DEWALT 10" 15-Amp Sliding Double-Bevel Compound Miter Saw 15A
$424
Shop DEWALT 10" 15-Amp Sliding Double-Bevel Compound Miter Saw at Lowes.com

I wonder about the quality of some of the stuff for sale at the big box stores though.

I have a cheap one like that, It does work well and I have done base boards, door frames, cut lumber for framing walls and built a deck using it. The only MAJOR frustration is that its an odd sized blade so finding reasonably priced blades is pretty much impossible. I would buy a 10inch model next time.

I have one of these monsters, thought I better get a good one instead of several cheep ones. it's great! Also get a really good blade, or several, that makes superior cuts. It's a Bosch around $450.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1268940689.jpg

Go to Fine Homebuilding - trusted articles, videos, books, and magazines on residential construction, home design, and renovation and read their reviews.

The ULTIMATE saw is the Festool Kapex. . . made in Germany. . . $1300. Does everything except make French fries.

I am looking at the Bosch, the sliding feature allows you to cut bigger stock with a smaller blade. I am considering the 10 inch double compound slider.

The advantage of double compound is that you can flop the saw over to the right as well as the left-- enabling you to cut crown in precisely the same orientation as it hangs on the wall. This will waste a lot less material due to making the wrong cut, which everybody does.

Also, get a good blade- FHB rated the Freud and the Dewalt as very good, with the Forrest and the Ridge taking top honors, but costing well over $120. The DeWalt is $32 and the Freud is $72.

Here the deal with cheap equip. Steve, you are always adjusting and checking to make sure it sq. You get what you pay for. I say get a sliding compound saw if you are going to do crown. I learn my trick of the trade in high school when there were not too many sliding compound saws, where you have to cut them up right. there was the Saw Buck by Delta, remember those guys? One slip and goes your moulding or your finger on a regular chop saw if you are cutting a large a nd long piece. I really like the Hitachi 10" saw. I also have a Makita sliding saw that just would not quit. You have no idea, or I have no idea how many times my guys dropped that saw.

For a 10" chop saw, I really like the Makita. We run a couple of those. The slilding compound had gotta to be the Hitachi or makita. Some one had a Bosch slider and I tried it and really like it. You could beat that thing a little in the back of the truck. Well built.

The trick is in the blade with a half way good saw. For a ten inch saw, which is the most common. For general purpose cutting, I run a 60 tooth carbide saw blade with neg hook for a sliding compound saw (slider). The neg hook will reduce the blade from climbing on your wook piece to reduce injury. No need for a neg. hook blade on a reg saw. On some of the home owner saws, if you run an industrial blade, usually a wider kerf, they seem to be a little under power so you can't get a smooth cut. Youneed rpm to get a nice finish. I really like Systematic's thin keft neg. hook blade for the sliders. Tenryu makes a great blade for small portable table saws. I run Leitz's blade for larger table saws. Alternate top bevel grind is the best of both world combo blade for ripping and crosscutting on the 1 1/2 to 3 hp table saws.

Jeff

Steve, there are lots of pawn shops around Houston. Check them out for deals on power tools.

We've had the Festool for 6 months now. It is a really really great tool. I am not sure if its more then half of my Hitachi? 5-10% better?

One of the reasons for a double compound saw is that you don't have to swing your stock. Often, they are really long pieces it is so much easier to change the angles then to run the piece out the window and back in for a cut then you cut the bevel the other way. Double compound saws were made to reduce swearing on the job.

All good advice. I'd get a sliding double compound bevel saw next time. Makes life easier, as it does so much. Hitachi and Dewalt seem to be the favorites of the guys I use.

another good tidbits: ALL saws suck at dust collection (pun). There vacuum hose connections just dont cut it (another pun). So you need a big collector that sits behind the saw to catch all the chips. And you need a miter saw stand (not just a saw horse) some are moble, some fold into compact units, most have long beds to hold long stock. I use a DeWalt unit. Or you can use the saw to buld yourself one!

From the Rockler site-- about "hook"

Hook Angle
On most saw blades, the tooth faces are tipped either toward or away from the direction of rotation of the blade, rather than being perfectly in line with the center of the blade. Hook angle is the angle formed between the tooth face and a line drawn from the center of the blade across the tip of the tooth. On a blade with a positive hook angle, the teeth are tipped toward the direction of the blade's rotation. A negative hook angle means that teeth tip away from the direction of rotation, and a zero degree hook angle means that the teeth are in line with the center of the blade.

Hook angle affects blade operation in important ways. A blade with high positive hook angle (+20 degrees is a high hook angle) will have a very aggressive cut and a fast feed rate. A low or negative hook angle will slow the feed rate and will also inhibit the blade's tendency to "climb" the material being cut. A blade for ripping lumber on a table saw will generally have a high hook angle, where an aggressive, fast cut is usually what you want. Radial arms saws and sliding compound miter saws, on the other hand, require a blade with a very low or negative hook angle, to inhibit overly fast feed rate, binding, and the blade's tendency to try to "climb" the material.

That is actually a good cutting saw. If you are ever going to get serious about crown molding or wide boards, you will want a 12 inch sliding compound miter saw. Bosch, Makita, Dewalt, Hitachi are all good, in about that order, but you can't tell the difference by the cuts. 500.00 will secure you one at the right time.

And here's how it works. There is never enough money to by the good saw first, but always enough money to spend 250.00 on a cheaper saw, and then go out and get the right saw later, when you cannot do without it.

BTW, it is easier to set big crown moldings upright and make the cut then to lay it flat and set up a weird dual angle cut. If it wasn't, you could get by with a 10'' slider, and I have been using the same 10'' Makita for 11 years, day in and day out. You do get what you pay for.

I agree with starting cheap - a bare bones basic model. I bought a refurbed Ryobi for $40 thru Amazon - shipping included. I don't need anything else -- for now. You can flip stuff over to address the "lack of slidiness." It will still be light years better than yore lil' plastic box...

Learn to use it - there are many tricks - e.g. you can put the piece up against the blade lightly - push slightly and trim off a 1/40th inch or so at a time.

Don't forget to eliminate parallax when sighting on the blade either.

You don't need a laser - but it is faster.

and, yes, get a good trim blade for moldings, etc. - my Freud blade cost more than the saw, but I used an orange HD card for it and got that for free by using credit car points.

Once you've used it for a while - maybe several years - decide if you need to upgrade (or do what I did, use your neighbor's shop for the big stuff).

Yeah, the Dewalt is built like a truck, and easy to set up. Most of the saws are belt drive. The Makitas are gear driven, but I have never seen a belt fail.

I love belt driven saws. They are so quiet. My makita is still gear driven and it is a tank. I (well my guy) choped up a whole bunch of wide 12/4 Ipe for a stair case with that damn thing a few months ago. I can hear it crying for help.

I've owned a Porter Cable 3802 compound for about 8 years now. It's a very solid saw. If the saw is a decent brand/quality, it'll work fine for most homeowners. The magic is in the blade. I use dewalt or freud. Definately go with the 12" unit. I've tried the sliding compound saws and did not like them. A slider is very rarely needed, and nothing I can't do on my JET table saw.

BTW, it is easier to set big crown moldings upright and make the cut then to lay it flat and set up a weird dual angle cut. If it wasn't, you could get by with a 10'' slider, and I have been using the same 10'' Makita for 11 years, day in and day out. You do get what you pay for.[/QUOTE]

No, I think it is 1000x easier to cut it flat. Doesn't matter how you cut it, it is still a compound miter cut. Plus, you can't cut a large crown up right on a 10" saw. It just will not fit. Do you remember those 100lbs large 14" Hitachi chop saws from the 80s? why do yu think they made such monsters back then, and only made an 8" sliding compound miter saw? I was in college back in the late 80s and I had to have that slider when hatichi came out with it. THey called me gadget man on the job. There's no easier way to cut large crown then on a sliding chop saw. We might just have the same Makita saw from 10 years ago. They were the first to come out with a 10" slider. Had to have that one too. We have cut many 8" stain grade crowns like that. That saw even cut 2 build up stain grade crown moulding jobs.

The easiest way to cut crown isn't flat on the table or upright on the fence. If you place it on a 45 resting on the fence and the table, all you need to worry about is cutting the miter. No compound saw required. The bevel takes care of itself. Check out the videos on youtube to see what I'm taking about. Inside and ouside corners can be done this way.

right, the correct way is resting on a 45 degree on the fence. Only if its a 45 degree crown. That's cutting up right. hard to do that with a 16 or 18' 6" or 8" crown. Miter crown will open up over time at the joint. You have to cope it to reduce the chance of it opening up. Some jobs, you have to do it. It takes forever. You still need to perform the compound miter cut for reference, then grind it out with a small grinder or jig saw with a special base to get into tight corners. forget the hand coping saw.

Another factor to remember, you might have the perfct saw that cut your crown to the exact compound angels but the lump of dry wall mud or plaster will throw you for a loop. It always does it in the very corner where the heel of the moulding lands. If not, the damn ceiling is not flat. A little hump will screw it all up for you. Push, shove, and shim is your only friend, unless its coped.

sorry for getting off subect.

jeff

I should have known. I've gotten recommendations for every option. So it's still definitely up to me. Maybe I'll get 2 or 3. ;)

For a buck-fifty, this seems like a good way to go. Thoughts?

Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

Steve, given the fact that you already told us how much you will be using the saw, I would suggest that you get a 10" or 12" non sliding compond miter saw and a 60 tooth Freud blade. you should be able to do most (I think 75-80 %) thing around the house. Hitachi or Dewalt should do the trick. under $200 bucks for the saw. 35-65 bucks for the blade. Good luck. Roybi should be a tad cheaper, but so is the quality. Not a big deal really.

Jeff