1989 Speedster - How low without insult?

[Dottore]

Thought I would resurrect this thread for a moment because something about the prices discussed here is very wrong.

I'm currently at the annual classic car show/market in Essen—which is the largest of its kind anywhere as far as I know. There are five 1989 speedsters for sale here at prices ranging from 69,000 Euro to 92,000 Euro. Three are priced in the mid-70K Euros. Only the 92K car has really low miles. The other cars are all drivers with 30-60K kms on the clock.

So if the price difference is that great between the US and Europe, someone should be buying all of these bargain speedsters up in the US and sending them across the pond....

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by Dottore

Thought I would resurrect this thread for a moment because something about the prices discussed here is very wrong.

I'm currently at the annual classic car show/market in Essen—which is the largest of its kind anywhere as far as I know. There are five 1989 speedsters for sale here at prices ranging from 69,000 Euro to 92,000 Euro. Three are priced in the mid-70K Euros. Only the 92K car has really low miles. The other cars are all drivers with 30-60K kms on the clock.

So if the price difference is that great between the US and Europe, someone should be buying all of these bargain speedsters up in the US and sending them across the pond....

Someone has been, I only know of the one cheap one that my friend snagged, there is an OK one in Chicargo for $47K, needs about $7K worth of work and has a wreck listed on car check. After that, he said he would drop the price to $46K..

[cab83_750]

Well, it looks like the husband has not worked for a while. Also, there has been a 'struggle' between the owners of the cars about the disposition of the Speedster.

I didn't want to be the cause of their big "D' so I will wait (perhaps consider this opportunity dead for now).

[speeder]

Originally Posted by Dottore

Thought I would resurrect this thread for a moment because something about the prices discussed here is very wrong.

I'm currently at the annual classic car show/market in Essen—which is the largest of its kind anywhere as far as I know. There are five 1989 speedsters for sale here at prices ranging from 69,000 Euro to 92,000 Euro. Three are priced in the mid-70K Euros. Only the 92K car has really low miles. The other cars are all drivers with 30-60K kms on the clock.

So if the price difference is that great between the US and Europe, someone should be buying all of these bargain speedsters up in the US and sending them across the pond....

You may be right but are the cars actually changing hands at those prices or is it just what the owners think they are worth? Also, I'm imagining that there is some really prohibitive tariff or tax on an American bringing a car over there to sell.

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by speeder

You may be right but are the cars actually changing hands at those prices or is it just what the owners think they are worth? Also, I'm imagining that there is some really prohibitive tariff or tax on an American bringing a car over there to sell.

I'll tell you in a couple of days if they sold.

Actually, it's very easy to re-import cars into Europe. In most countries they're exempt from import duty if they're over a certain arbitrary age. (20 or 30 years say)

Or if there is a duty, its very small.

The classic car scene is huge in Europe—so the demand for older cars is considerable. Owning a classic car and taking part in rallies and events etc is a hobby that is almost as common as soccer. The local events calendar in Germany lists over 1000 events for this year alone.

By way of example, I watched a guy buy a '59 TR3 for 65K euros yesterday. Now admittedly this was the very nicest TR3 I have ever seen in my life, but 65K euros is about $86K. For a TR3. Then again it is eligible for most vintage events.

However, none of this explains the prices of an '89 speedster in my view, since these cars are too new to be eligible for most rallies—and since they really are just '89 cabriolets with a small window and a bad roof.

[McLovin]

Same goes for 356 speedsters, they are just 356 Cabs with a small windshield and a bad roof - but they sell for 2X (or more) than regular 356 Cabs. People apparently dig the small windshields and bad roofs on air cooled porsches, and are willing to pay for it.

I've seen the Euro prices for 911s in the British Porsche mags that we get here in the US. All the Euro prices seem quite a bit higher than in the US, from every model of air cooled Porsche.

[Dottore]

OK. Just to finish this off. There were six '89 speedsters for sale here. As of today five of them were sold. The only one that hasn't yet sold is the Gulf blue one.

I'm not sure how close they sold to the asking price, but from the people I spoke to everyone thought the sell was pretty close to the asking. A couple of them were asking in the low 90K Euro—which is $120K—and they sold. The cheapest was 78K Euro—which is about $90K.

Interestingly none of them were zero mile cars. eg., the one that sold for US$120K had 30K kilometers on it.

Price arbitrage appears to pay....

[cab83_750]

Wow!


Dottore,

That Gulf Blue one is actually Glacier Blue. My '83 Cab is of the same color.

[tchanson]

Price arbitrage perhaps.

More likely Essen is becoming the Euro equivalent of Barrett Jackson re pricing outliers.




Tim

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by tchanson

Price arbitrage perhaps.

More likely Essen is becoming the Euro equivalent of Barrett Jackson re pricing outliers.

Tim

I think the former. It's a very broad-based crowd here. Not just the La Jolla/Nantucket champagne and finger sandwich crowd.

And from everything I heard and saw the prices were real. I spoke to a couple of guys last night who did over 20 buying trips to the US last year. And I gather they're not alone.

These cars wander back and forth across the pond depending on exchange rates and the relative strength of the economies.

[vipergreen]

Essen is a bit of a price outlier in Europe, but prices are only a little bit higher than in other transactions. I personally saw a nice 35.000kms 89 speedster change hands last month for more than $100k-equivalent, so the reported sales in Essen are not a surprise. The gulf blue car is a non-original colour, so that's probably why it didn't sell.

Price arbitrage between US and EU depends from countries, but as a rule to import a US car one has to pay import duties (on car value+transport costs) and VAT. For example, in Italy they are 10% and 20% respectively, but in other EU countries they are lower (i think in Holland VAT is 6% for example).
So, a bit of tax arbitrage between shipping destinations

Andrea

[cab83_750]

Originally Posted by vipergreen

... The gulf blue car is a non-original colour, so that's probably why it didn't sell. ....
.....
Andrea

Factory color. It is called Glacier Blue (can't remember how it is spelled in German).

[cab83_750]

You know, Jim Walker built a Speedster and sold it a few years ago. I wonder how much it would cost for a factory cab to be transformed into a Speedster. ??????????

[Dueller]

Originally Posted by vipergreen

The gulf blue car is a non-original colour, so that's probably why it didn't sell.

It also doesn't have turbo flares...didn't speedsters all come with m491 option? May be a conversion.

[Dueller]

Originally Posted by cab83_750

You know, Jim Walker built a Speedster and sold it a few years ago. I wonder how much it would cost for a factory cab to be transformed into a Speedster. ??????????

I think part of the expense is availability of speedster specific parts. Aside from the windshield and frame, they had different side windows, top, top frame, seals, etc. IIRC. I've seen a few attempts at homebuilt speedsters by chopping and rakinking the windshield but the end up with problems with the other parts.

[tchanson]

Originally Posted by Dueller

It also doesn't have turbo flares...didn't speedsters all come with m491 option? May be a conversion.

There were 165 factory non-Turbo look body '89 Speedsters.




Tim

[Dueller]

Originally Posted by tchanson

There were 165 factory non-Turbo look body '89 Speedsters.




Tim

Learn something new every day...wonder if they're more "valuable" as a result?

[Talewinds]

Originally Posted by Dottore

The cheapest was 78K Euro—which is about $90K

For comparison, that's enough to get you your choice of just about any preowned GT3 or half the GT3RS's currently on the market.

I just don't "get" the Speedsters....

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by Dueller

Learn something new every day...wonder if they're more "valuable" as a result?

There were built for the Euro market, and I would have to say, yes, they're more "valuable"..

For comparison, that's enough to get you your choice of just about any preowned GT3 or half the GT3RS's currently on the market.

I just don't "get" the Speedsters....

Sure you can, but it still won't have the legacy that the Speedster has. You have to understand the whole history of the Speedster, starting with the 356, like my Mother's


which where lighter & faster, and made a name for themselve on the Race track, add the low profile, they became "the" Porsche..

When Porsche built the Speedster in the late 80s, many people wanted them not only for the lower profile look & wide body, but because the lower numbers built and the fact 89 was the last year of the 911, as the new 964 series had also started in 89.
The 964 Speedsters used the same techniques as the 911 Speedster, but buillt on a narrow body, with very few wide body Speedsters (again, for the Euro market) built, color matched 17" Cup I wheels and hard shell, fixed back Recaro seats... What makes them so special to many of us is the memories of being put in the back (in my case, it was my sister, as I wasn't here yet) for the races, some of our favorite movie stars owned/drove them (James Dean, Steve McQueen) and the low production numbers almost guarantees you won't see one on every corner..

[89911]

Nothing for nothing, but they are pretty cool looking. Isn't that what it is all about sometimes? Little rest of the car makes it any more valuable other then its scarcity.