New S&W 380

[UconnTim97]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

LOL, I actually have or had the same opinion.

Was discussing that very point of view with my neighbor last week, the one on W's detail, he's also former Baltimore PD. Was getting his opinion on the G26 which is a 9mm round. He said not enough stopping power. I responded isn't it enough that it makes a big noise? Won't that scare off most people? He said no, not really.

His point of view was, never pull your gun unless you are going to shoot the person.
When you pull your gun you shoot the person.
When you shoot the person you want to shoot them once and have them drop.

You will find that civilians have very differing views (as well as laws) on armed engagement as compared to police and military.

[Paul K]

My wife carries a .380 Kel-Tec. Great little gun. However, in a firefight I'd prefer my .357!

[jyl]

I would prefer a 9mm, .357, or .45 but I think there is a place for .380. Like, it's better than the .45 you left at home.

If I get this one, I'll have a decent choice of handguns. My Glock 9mm, my Detonics .45 (packs a punch but weighs a ton), my S&W .38 J-frame (light, simple, slightly thick), and this .380 (the most concealable).

What will I do if I ever have to defend myself? I don't know for sure, and doubt anyone does unless they've been there. This is what I will try to do, and hope I have the presence of mind to do: stand up straight, aim deliberately, hit who I shoot at, and keep shooting until he is prone or gone or I can't shoot any more.

[Gogar]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

Was discussing that very point of view with my neighbor last week, the one on W's detail, he's also former Baltimore PD.

(snip)


When you shoot the person you want to shoot them once and have them drop.

Hence the ABSOLUTE RASH of "officer involved shooting" videos out there where the cops just shoot one time . . . . . . . . .

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by UconnTim97

You will find that civilians have very differing views (as well as laws) on armed engagement as compared to police and military.

His points were,

1. The weapon only comes into play after all alternatives to preserve your life have been exhausted.

2. See 1.

3. See 2.

That translates fine to civilians.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by jyl

Think I found my next gun. Integrated laser 380 from S&W.



Looks to be 0.07" thinner and 1.6 oz heavier than the Ruger LCP w/ CTC laser.

I just like the looks - there, I admit it.

I like it a lot.

Very "busy" looking, but that's ok. The Ruger LCP (by the way, i'm loving mine!) is a much sleeker looking pistol, but 'sleeker looking' is not a performance characteristic. LOL. What is a performance characteristic, however, is the laser activation mode of the pistols. The CT unit- IMO- has a clearly superior momentary activation "natural grip" pressure switch feature. It's really that feature that makes CT lasers stand apart from it's competitors. I also do not like the 3 position switch on the S&W. If it must be a constant on switch i want only 2 positions. On and off.

One thing i love about the smith though, and this is an advantage in it's favor.... IT'S GOT REAL SIGHTS. It also has a manual safety (but not ambi ). It also has a fully functional slide stop lever.

That's a hard little pistol not to like- but i really do not like the constant/pulse/off feature of the laser or it's activation mode. The laser on my P7 has the same switch arrangement(but just on/off) and i don't like that all that much either. Heck of a lot of money though, $575msrp. Even buying a CT laser at retail prices, an LCP is a good deal less money. Still....very, very nice. (If they work and shoot well). I really like the fact that it has real sights.

I'd definitely prefer this Smith to my Kel Tec P-32 or a P-3AT. Since the Taurus appears to not work well, this one seems very viable. I also saw a small .380 Glock looking pocket pistol with a DAO trigger in the $450 range when i bought my LCP last week, but i had never heard of the manufacturer, so i didn't even really pay it much heed. But it had a nice DAO pull when i inspected it.

[targa911S]

it looks like a squirt gun.

[Geronimo '74]

Originally Posted by targa911S

it looks like a squirt gun.

Because if some nutcase points it at you, you squirt some liquid poo in your pants?

[targa911S]

[Geronimo '74]

Lol, that doesn't look anything like the squirtguns we had back in the days...

I think all those small pocket guns have something of a squirtgun.
Bullets sting a bit more than a jet of H2O tho...

[targa911S]

Originally Posted by Geronimo '74

Lol, that doesn't look anything like the squirtguns we had back in the days...

Neither do all these "future guns".

I like guns that are made of metal.

[Racerbvd]

A 380 was good enough for James Bond..

[targa911S]

The original PPK,( Bond's) was a .32. The PP was a .380.

[RPKESQ]

Originally Posted by targa911S

The original PPK,( Bond's) was a .32. The PP was a .380.

And before that?..................

A Beretta.

[jyl]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

I like it a lot.

Very "busy" looking, but that's ok. The Ruger LCP (by the way, i'm loving mine!) is a much sleeker looking pistol, but 'sleeker looking' is not a performance characteristic. LOL. What is a performance characteristic, however, is the laser activation mode of the pistols. The CT unit- IMO- has a clearly superior momentary activation "natural grip" pressure switch feature. It's really that feature that makes CT lasers stand apart from it's competitors. I also do not like the 3 position switch on the S&W. If it must be a constant on switch i want only 2 positions. On and off.

One thing i love about the smith though, and this is an advantage in it's favor.... IT'S GOT REAL SIGHTS. It also has a manual safety (but not ambi ). It also has a fully functional slide stop lever.

That's a hard little pistol not to like- but i really do not like the constant/pulse/off feature of the laser or it's activation mode. The laser on my P7 has the same switch arrangement(but just on/off) and i don't like that all that much either. Heck of a lot of money though, $575msrp. Even buying a CT laser at retail prices, an LCP is a good deal less money. Still....very, very nice. (If they work and shoot well). I really like the fact that it has real sights.

I'd definitely prefer this Smith to my Kel Tec P-32 or a P-3AT. Since the Taurus appears to not work well, this one seems very viable. I also saw a small .380 Glock looking pocket pistol with a DAO trigger in the $450 range when i bought my LCP last week, but i had never heard of the manufacturer, so i didn't even really pay it much heed. But it had a nice DAO pull when i inspected it.

Yes, the S&W appears to have real sights. I suppose I'll have to shell out extra for Trijicon or similar.

Another thing I am attracted to is the manual safety.

I am perfectly fine not having one in the Glock, because that pistol is strictly for holster carry, never pocket carry. Whereas the S&W would be carried in a pocket - in a so-called "pocket holster" admittedly, but still rattling around in a pocket with, potentially, other stuff. Yes, your pistol really shouldn't share space with your keys, but sometimes I just don't have that many pockets on me. In that situation, I would feel slightly better with a manual safety plus the pocket holster that shields the trigger.

Maybe that's being too paranoid? You seem fine w/ your Ruger LCP - no manual safety and a <6 lb trigger pull (per some tests I've read). But I don't know how you carry it.

I have no idea what the S&W's trigger pull is, or if it can take hotter ammo. Doesn't seem like anyone has gotten one to test yet. And of course, immediately buying a new model of gun is kind of risky - witness the LCP's recall - but a company like S&W and Ruger will stand behind their product even if the early ones have some glitches.

[m21sniper]

Targa- I also prefer metal guns, but in a pocket pistol there is no debating the fact that polymer really adds to the "mission capability" of the piece.

My LCP is half the weight, literally, of an all steel Guardian arms .380.

The only metal material that could compete in weight with polymer is titanium, as is used on some of the new Taurus .380 slides (LIGHTEST pocket pistol going, period), but it is MUCHO expensive.

PS: The Taurus pocket pistols have very, very bad user reviews online. Wait for the 2nd edition, the 1st edition guns apparently DO NOT WORK.

Do not make yourself the guinea pig.

Originally Posted by Normy

If I pump my Crossman 760 air rifle up about 20 times...I suspect I could equal the muzzle energy of your 380~

-My dad told me "NEVER, ever shoot a racoon with a .22. That just pisses him off, and you don't want to piss him off since the average raccoon can quickly kill dead a dog twice its weight."

FIND a better gun!

N!

Nah, with the latest ammo these little .380's can match the muzzle energy of .38spl+P ammo fired from a 2" revolver.

And with a good laser system they have the precision to accurately and precisely place your shots exactly where you want them for maximum effect.

And because of their size, you can have them with you at all times.

Originally Posted by DAEpperson

I love the .380 ACP. Is that what it is?

Yes.

The latest offerings from both Buffalo Bore and Corbon DPX both offer terminal performance pretty much identical to standard pressure 9mm parabellum or .38spl+P ammunition.

I would definitely not want to be shot by a .380 ACP Cor Bon DPX round. (10.75" penetration, approx .65" expansion). Let alone 7 of them!

Originally Posted by Gogar

I agree with Normy. I got shot 7 times with a .380 once, and it just pissed me off. Only thing that saved the other guy was when the laser hit me in the eye, and I had a siezure.

Once again, i love the people that pay attention to my posts over the long term.

Originally Posted by on2wheels52

".380 is an awesome round for a compact pistol and with the right ammo can easily match a 9mm."

Sorry, ballistics don't work that way. All things being equal (?) a 9 is better.
Jim

I don't really agree Jim. A 9mm and a .380 are both .355" in diameter. Cor Bon DPX penetration and expansion equals (and even exceeds) many classical and well respected 9mm loadings. So does Buffalo Bore Gold Dot JHP.

Honestly, Cor Bon DPX .380acp ammo greatly exceeds the in gel performance of the legendary "King of all manstoppers," The 125gr .357 magnum SJHP.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by jyl

Yes, the S&W appears to have real sights. I suppose I'll have to shell out extra for Trijicon or similar.

Another thing I am attracted to is the manual safety.

I am perfectly fine not having one in the Glock, because that pistol is strictly for holster carry, never pocket carry. Whereas the S&W would be carried in a pocket - in a so-called "pocket holster" admittedly, but still rattling around in a pocket with, potentially, other stuff. Yes, your pistol really shouldn't share space with your keys, but sometimes I just don't have that many pockets on me. In that situation, I would feel slightly better with a manual safety plus the pocket holster that shields the trigger.

Maybe that's being too paranoid? You seem fine w/ your Ruger LCP - no manual safety and a <6 lb trigger pull (per some tests I've read). But I don't know how you carry it.

I have no idea what the S&W's trigger pull is, or if it can take hotter ammo. Doesn't seem like anyone has gotten one to test yet. And of course, immediately buying a new model of gun is kind of risky - witness the LCP's recall - but a company like S&W and Ruger will stand behind their product even if the early ones have some glitches.

I would either get the trijicon sights to augment the laser, or just paint the existing blades with some good phosphorescent all weather paint. (not as good, but a whole lot cheaper).

Regarding the safety, the DAO mechanism of the Smith/Ruger/KT/Taurus .380 autos makes a manual safety unnecessary for simple carrying concerns, however, it is a well documented fact that a safety can prevent unwanted accidental discharges if unauthorized personnel get hold of your spoon, and most importantly, if you somehow have your spoon taken off of you and you have to wrestle the guy to get it back. (or run like hell to get out of range before he figures out how it works)

If you look at the side of that little S&W .380, there is a very small chance that someone unfamiliar with the spoon is going to quickly get the correct lever disengaged so that he can shoot you with your own gun. Especially in the dark, and under stress.

I do wish the LCP had a safety, and honestly, if the S&W did NOT come with the integrated laser, and i could buy a CT laser for it instead, i would be trading my LCP right back in on one of those S&Ws. However, the laser activation switch on the CT is IMO vastly superior to the S&W arrangement, so, again IMO, the LCP (even despite not having a safety or fully functional slide release) has a real tactical advantage. Then again, the S&W has real, honest to goodness sights. If your batteries die at the wrong time or your laser gets smashed/broken, the S&W would hold a significant advantage over the LCP.

IMO S&W really screwed up by not contracting with CT to make their laser unit. If they did, they would have the ultimate .380 on the market at this time. But they didn't.

Still, ASSUMING it works properly, i would put the S&W at #2 in the genre behind only the LCP, and then only if the LCP is equipped with a CT unit.

One other huge advantage of the CT is that because it's removable one can take it off in 5 years and re-equip the spoon with the latest, greatest green laser CT units that will no doubt be hitting the market in the next couple years.

Green lasers are vastly superior because they work in the day time too, and because at night they actually throw enough light to be used as a flashlight as well as a targeting system.

As far as +P ammo, as long as you are only using the +P ammo for your self defense load, and to occasional reverify zero and function, i wouldn't worry about it. It's both too expensive and recoils too hard to practice with regularly anyway.

So, +P for self defense, and cheap-o ball ammo for target practice, and you'll be good to go.

Before anyone buys the S&W, i would recommend they go on google and do an extensive search for ACTUAL USER reviews. Do not rely on bought and paid for gun writers reviews to make your selection.

Originally Posted by lendaddy

99% of the effectiveness of a handgun is it's existence. I would venture that almost never has anyone ever decided their fight/flight response based on the caliber barrel in their face.

"I see you are sporting a mere .38, normally I would run but since I have a .45 in my waistband I will challenge you openly." Please......

Len, i agree with this 100%.

What's more, it is appearing more and more likely that the NUMBER ONE reason why some people go down when shot is mental, not physical.

People fall down when shot because for centuries, we've been trained that when shot...people should fall down. The amount of tissue destruction caused by a bullet, even something like a .45acp, is actually quite small. Short of a CNS hit, even a shot to the heart leaves your attacker dozens of seconds with which to kill you back before he bleeds out and loses consciousness.

So when people fall down right after getting shot it certainly appears that the reason is because, in their head, they believe that is the proper response to getting shot.

Seriously.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by targa911S

The original PPK,( Bond's) was a .32. The PP was a .380.

HUH??????? Both the PPK and PP were originally 32 caliber and 22 Caliber, being introduced in 1929..only later came the 380 and those were far and few between before 1950.

An RPKESQ...AND YOU MISSED THIS OPPORTUNITY TO CORRECT SOMEONE....you must be slipping?

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

LOL, I actually have or had the same opinion.

Was discussing that very point of view with my neighbor last week, the one on W's detail, he's also former Baltimore PD. Was getting his opinion on the G26 which is a 9mm round. He said not enough stopping power. I responded isn't it enough that it makes a big noise? Won't that scare off most people? He said no, not really.

His point of view was, never pull your gun unless you are going to shoot the person.
When you pull your gun you shoot the person.
When you shoot the person you want to shoot them once and have them drop.

There are documented instances of people taking multiple .50BMG hits and not going down. Multiple 12 gauge buckshot or slug hits and not going down, and just the other day i saw a documented case of a man getting hit IN THE HEAD by a 14.5mm AP round (DOUBLE the muzzle energy of .50BMG!) and not dying.

There is no magic bullet, and "stopping/knockdown power" is actually a complete and total myth. Even at point blank range, standing on one foot, full power .308 (7.62 NATO) rounds will not knock you even 1 step back. I can prove this with video, if anyone is interested.

I would much rather have an 8 shot .380 that has a safe for every day carry DAO mechanism than i would a 9mm Glock that is statistically the most likely firearm on earth to be involved in an ND/AD event.

What's more, a .380 LCP is a much, much smaller gun than a Glock 26/27. There are times when you can carry an LCP that you'd have to leave the Glock at home or in your car- forcing you to be unarmed. Murphy dictates that it is at that time, that you will need your spoon to begin with.

[cgarr]

So my 44 isn't going to make the guy fly across the room like in the movies?