Thoughts on Flash by Steve Jobs

[enzo1]

Thoughts on Flash A rare open letter written by Steve Jobs on Apple.com

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Jobs is nuts if he thinks Apple ANYTHING is "open". Apple is more closed than Microsoft, whom everyone loves to bash for their proprietary, closed-source product line.

Yes, this reality will piss off the latte-sipping, corduroy-blazer-wearing, Volvo-driving, tree-hugging Apple crowd over in Cambridge who pay thousands of dollars for anything with an Apple logo on it because "it's not the evil Microsoft" and to impress their friends, but it's still the reality. I personally can't stand Apple's arrogance to smugly insist that they're "open" yet are far more authoritarian with their products/software and seek to control everything associated with them with an iron fist.

Adobe's products are hardly junk. Flash has lived out its usefulness (I agree with Jobs there) but their strength is in video/graphics editing (Creative Suite, etc.)

"Open". Yeah, my arse.

It will be very interesting to see Adobe's response to this.

[mca]

"I think it’s safe to assume he’s feeling the pressure / backlash from developers and the like. Why else would he post such a blog out of the blue? He’s doing damage control and making everyone look at his left hand, when the ball is actually in his right hand. The ball being the archaic, closed type of business practices of Apple that’s all the buzz of late.."

- A quote from a developer



And to say that Flash has outlived its usefulness is nonsense. Want to read more?
Uza’s Blog & More » Blog Archive » My take: HTML5 vs. Flash

[enzo1]

here's the problem "Mouse Events"?

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

Jobs is nuts if he thinks Apple ANYTHING is "open". Apple is more closed than Microsoft, whom everyone loves to bash for their proprietary, closed-source product line.

Yes, this reality will piss off the latte-sipping, corduroy-blazer-wearing, Volvo-driving, tree-hugging Apple crowd over in Cambridge who pay thousands of dollars for anything with an Apple logo on it because "it's not the evil Microsoft" and to impress their friends, but it's still the reality. I personally can't stand Apple's arrogance to smugly insist that they're "open" yet are far more authoritarian with their products/software and seek to control everything associated with them with an iron fist.

Adobe's products are hardly junk. Flash has lived out its usefulness (I agree with Jobs there) but their strength is in video/graphics editing (Creative Suite, etc.)

"Open". Yeah, my arse.

It will be very interesting to see Adobe's response to this.

Apple is very Open. They are a .nix with a proprietary GUI.

Darwin, the core of the OS is Open Source. Windows, not even close.

Each and every box ships with Apache, Perl, mySQL, Ruby, X11, Webkit etc......

It's a very simple question.

Allow a 3rd party the ability to control your stuff or maintain control yourself.

The Flash port is the lazy way out. In my industry we deal with ported product on a daily basis.

While porting has it's place and many times creates no issues the fact is there is no substitute for platform specific code.

[equality72521]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

Apple is very Open. They are a .nix with a proprietary GUI.

Darwin, the core of the OS is Open Source. Windows, not even close.

Each and every box ships with Apache, Perl, mySQL, Ruby, X11, Webkit etc......

It's a very simple question.

Allow a 3rd party the ability to control your stuff or maintain control yourself.

The Flash port is the lazy way out. In my industry we deal with ported product on a daily basis.

While porting has it's place and many times creates no issues the fact is there is no substitute for platform specific code.

[mca]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

Apple used to be very Open.

Fixed that for ya.

[equality72521]

So Apple isn't allowed to have anything proprietary?

[mca]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

The Flash port is the lazy way out. In my industry we deal with ported product on a daily basis.

While porting has it's place and many times creates no issues the fact is there is no substitute for platform specific code.

First of all, the porting from AS3 is not a lazy way out. How can you say that? You would prefer to use Objective C ? That language is archaic at best.

Having already tested the porting feature in Flash CS5 I'll tell you that the problem isn't with the porting and producing a quality app. The problem is with the ridiculous hoops you have to jump through just to test an iPhone app on YOUR OWN DEVICE. It literally took me 3 weeks to get what I needed just to get started.

I do agree that platform specific code the PUREST form. But that means nothing to me.

Hop on the app store and you will quickly see a lot of *****ty apps written with *****ty code in Objective C.

The language DOES NOT MATTER. The programmer's skills matter. The user interface matters.

[mca]

Originally Posted by equality72521

So Apple isn't allowed to have anything proprietary?

Sure. I don't remember saying they couldn't. And I am not saying that Jobs is completely wrong. Mostly he seems bitter for the lack of Mac OS support over the years.

So what do you want? Do you want the Flash Player to be open source?

For the same reason the Flash Player isn't open source, the iPhone / iPad isn't open source.

This is where I take issue with Apple:

I can use anything I want to write AS3 code and publish and swf for the Flash Player. I don't need Adobe software - in fact, I could use software from another vendor if I was so inclined.

But Apple is forcing you to use Apple products to create apps. Their developer program doesn't even have instructions for anyone NOT using an Apple OS.

[equality72521]

Originally Posted by mca

Sure. I don't remember saying they couldn't.

See post #7 where "ya fixed it".

[mca]

Originally Posted by equality72521

See post #7 where "ya fixed it".

I guess I still don't see how that reads as me saying "apple can't have proprietary products".

Again, they used to be much more open. Google "Apples Walled Garden" and you will see what I mean.

They are certainly trending in a particular direction.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by mca

Sure. I don't remember saying they couldn't. And I am not saying that Jobs is completely wrong. Mostly he seems bitter for the lack of Mac OS support over the years.

So what do you want? Do you want the Flash Player to be open source?

For the same reason the Flash Player isn't open source, the iPhone / iPad isn't open source.

This is where I take issue with Apple:

I can use anything I want to write AS3 code and publish and swf for the Flash Player. I don't need Adobe software - in fact, I could use software from another vendor if I was so inclined.

But Apple is forcing you to use Apple products to create apps. Their developer program doesn't even have instructions for anyone NOT using an Apple OS.

I hear ya, been having the same conversation with the PlayStation, Xbox, Wii and DS people for years.

I mean really, why should I be tied into their individual libraries, tools, API's, guidelines and feature sets.

The nerve of them to dictate that we write code that exploits their individual unique features and differentiators.

It would be much easier for us if they just got together and developed a common hardware/feature set and eliminated what makes one better than the other in certain areas.

And that is exactly what Jobs is getting at.

[equality72521]

It's all the talk about being "open". I'm a huge open source fan but I also believe companies have the right to be open, closed, or somewhere in between. I think a company should be allowed to control their product to ensure it is done the way they want... even if it is wrong in the eyes of the experts on this board. If Apple wants complete control over their product then more power to them. Don't like it? Don't buy it. Don't forget, Apple is in business to make money...period. They will make the decisions they believe to be correct for their business model.

[mca]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

I hear ya, been having the same conversation with the PlayStation, Xbox, Wii and DS people for years.

I mean really, why should I be tied into their individual libraries, tools, API's, guidelines and feature sets.

The nerve of them to dictate that we write code that exploits their individual unique features and differentiators.

It would be much easier for us if they just got together and developed a common hardware/feature set and eliminated what makes one better than the other in certain areas.

And that is exactly what Jobs is getting at.

I don't even know what you mean.

You are talking about many languages and many platforms.

I am talking about many languages translated to work on a single platform. In no way does this exploit the single platform.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by mca

In no way does this exploit the unique features of any single platform.

Exactly!

[herr_oberst]

Originally Posted by equality72521

Don't like it? Don't buy it.

Amen, brother.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

I don't disagree. However, for Jobs to claim that Apple is "open" is ridiculous. I understand their rationale about controlling developer apps, etc. but the reality is that is consistent with a (very) CLOSED approach to development, distribution, support, etc.

I do not fault them one bit for demanding that everyone who wants to develop for iPhone, iPad, whatever needs to meet THEIR standards first, but this is also a slippery slope and comes with all the baggage of authoritianism (look at all the iPhone apps that Apple has already censored and/or crushed under its boot). HARDLY open. Business smart? Sure, maybe. But call a spade a spade - they want full control from design through use to (eventually) landfill.

There's a reason so many iPhone users jailbreak the devices. Not everyone likes or wants someone else thinking for them.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

Business smart? Sure, maybe. But call a spade a spade - they want full control from design through use to (eventually) landfill.

That approach has worked out quite well for the #2, (projected to be #1 next year), consumer entertainment category, gaming.

You don't think Sony, MSFT and Nintendo don't reject titles? Way wrong. They'll reject a great game that is slated to be multi platform simply because it does not have a feature unique to their platform.

Been doing this 20 years. See it every day.

[equality72521]

Seems pretty clear to me that he is not saying they are completely open but that they try to use open standards.

"Apple has many proprietary products too. Though the operating system for the iPhone, iPod and iPad is proprietary, we strongly believe that all standards pertaining to the web should be open. Rather than use Flash, Apple has adopted HTML5, CSS and JavaScript – all open standards. Apple’s mobile devices all ship with high performance, low power implementations of these open standards. HTML5, the new web standard that has been adopted by Apple, Google and many others, lets web developers create advanced graphics, typography, animations and transitions without relying on third party browser plug-ins (like Flash). HTML5 is completely open and controlled by a standards committee, of which Apple is a member."