Proprietary computers and new cars...

[Dixie]

Here's my rant for the week...

I installed the Mopar backup camera in my Dodge Ram last weekend. It makes hooking up the trailer a breeze. But to activate the system, you need to have the dealer configure the UConnect computer system in the truck. So I bought the camera. I install the system, and return to the dealer to have it turned on. The dealership hooks the truck to the Dodge diagnostic system and connects to the factory Intranet system. They type in the VIN number and the option code. Viola, the camera works. What do they charge for this 5 minute task? The service manager "cuts me a deal". It's only $80!

WTF? One would think it would be easier to build the truck with the software configured to run everything regardless what's actually on the truck. And the $80 charge is absurd. That action will keep me from going to the dealership again. To think I was astounded years ago when I owned my '94 BMW. BMW would not sell their service manual to the public. That was obviously just the start of a trend to desig cars so they steer service to the dealer network.

PS: There is a $200 aftermarket hardware/software workaround. but $80 is less that $200. Now if I was adding the NAV system as well...

[sc_rufctr]

I feel your frustration. Damn crooked car dealers... They just love to give it to you. (I used to work in the trade)

For the reasons you stated above I've decided top keep my 1994 VW Golf VR6 indefinitely.

She's getting old but when something breaks I can fix it myself...
The only thing I go to a professional for are tyres, balancing and wheel alignment.
I have a diagnostic cable that plugs into the OBD port so I can check for codes and stuff.

I changed the brake/clutch fluid on the weekend and even though the car has ABS it went like butter.

[A930Rocket]

I feel your pain. I've been pulling my hair out trying to find a misfire on my 01 F150. Cleaned and/or replaced everything. Finally relented and took it to the Stealer this AM to diagnose it. #7 spark plug fouled up, that I just installed.

Cost to diagnose and replace one spark plug in 45 minutes? $180 freaking dollars!

[stomachmonkey]

Moved to TX and had all my tools in storage. They check the parking brake as part of inspection and the wifes Tahoe failed. Apparently the 01 models had a poor system and the pads drag causing premature wear. Same issue on the 01 Silverado which had a recall for it.

Go to dealer, service mgr admits that the Tahoe and Siverado systems are identical but the recall is only for Silverado so he has no choice but to charge. $800.00 for a rear brake job.

[Jagshund]

I hate to throw this out there, but $80 is the standard price point around Atlanta for minor jobs such as shutting off lights, reprogramming modules and other simple issues.

[quaz]

At least with VWs and Audis there is a good aftermarket option for computer access with VAGcom. Other makes and models it is harder to get software for. I know there are some of the hacked dealer programs floating around the web, but I prefer to license my software (call me crazy). Anyway, I asked the dealer to turn off the crazy dinging when your seat belt is not buckled in my Jetta (not the light, just the sound) and they said they couldn't do it. Not possible. No can do. Five minutes later with VAGcom and the noise is gone. It was stupid in the manual because if the engine was running it would ding, even if the emergency brake was pulled. In the autos it shut off in park. Just one small example of how configurable the software is and how stupid the dealers act about it.

[kaisen]

Yep, the VW dealer was dumb for not turning off your federally mandated seatbelt warning.

On the other hand, it would be brilliant to charge only $10 (afterall, it takes five minutes) to those who asked for theirs to be turned off, then forgetting to put it on, then being killed in an accident, then being sued for $$$ millions by their surviving spouse for their negligence. Yeah, that's smarter.

Most of these comments are pretty uninformed

[BGCarrera32]

Originally Posted by A930Rocket

I feel your pain. I've been pulling my hair out trying to find a misfire on my 01 F150. Cleaned and/or replaced everything. Finally relented and took it to the Stealer this AM to diagnose it. #7 spark plug fouled up, that I just installed.

Cost to diagnose and replace one spark plug in 45 minutes? $180 freaking dollars!

But what is your time worth?

[lm6y]

Kaisen, you must be a BLAST at parties!

I feel your pain. I've been pulling my hair out trying to find a misfire on my 01 F150. Cleaned and/or replaced everything. Finally relented and took it to the Stealer this AM to diagnose it. #7 spark plug fouled up, that I just installed.

Cost to diagnose and replace one spark plug in 45 minutes? $180 freaking dollars!

Kinda cheap to find a problem you didn't have the tools to properly diagnose, and fix. With a real scanner, you could have pulled up the misfire data, or counts in real time, and found it immediately. I paid over a grand for my Snap-On scanner, and It's paid me back in spades. You could look at it that way.

[Dixie]

I have a parallel story that may illuminate where we'll all be in the near future. That future is when today's proprietary systems are no longer supported.

In '95 my wife bought a really pristine 300zx. The car did have one issue. The climate control system would either blow full blast at max heat, or max A/C. I worked on the system for weeks. Finally, I called the dealer to get the system fixed. They couldn't help. The diagnostic tools were long gone. We wound up retrofitting the manual controls from a junkyard 300ZX.

So much for those fancy electronically controlled features.

[Zeke]

Don't sell your old cars. You may need that Mad Max machine.

[A930Rocket]

I'm looking for a scanner and not one that will just read codes. In my case there were no codes. What sucks is that Sunday I removed all the COPS to remove any extra dielectric grease that might be causing the problem. Took an hour. For an extra half hour, I could have replaced all the plugs, but they only had 10k miles on them. They usually last 100k.

When I went in, they said it was $50 to $100 to diagnose the problem, but it was applied to the "repair". I need to look at the invoice again, since all that was replaced was a $5 plug. That's $175 of diagnostics and "repair".

Originally Posted by lm6y

Kinda cheap to find a problem you didn't have the tools to properly diagnose, and fix. With a real scanner, you could have pulled up the misfire data, or counts in real time, and found it immediately. I paid over a grand for my Snap-On scanner, and It's paid me back in spades. You could look at it that way.

[quaz]

First let me say in college I was a VW tech and worked at the local VW dealer here for 4 years. I know the games the service managers play because they get paid on commission. The techs just do their jobs and fix cars. I never cared about how much a customer was or wasn't charged, just whether or not the car was fixed correctly.

Anyway, 4 weeks ago I took my Jetta in for an oil change an I told him the front ball joints were getting worn and take a look at them. The service manager (I have known him for 15+ years) called me later that day and said it needs ball joints, they have them in stock and he can get it done quickly. I said do it. I went to pick up the car and was in a rush so I didn't have time to scrutinize the bill and just paid it. When I got home I noticed he charged me $75 each for the ball joints. HUH my last invoice from the parts department (I know the parts guys so they show me cost, list and my mark up) showed the same part numbers cost the dealer $8 each and I paid $18 each two year ago. So I looked up the part numbers online and sure enough most places online get about $25 each for them OE. I called back the service manager and got some BS story about set prices from VW blah blah blah. So I called back my friend in parts and sure enough cost is still $8 each. Next call was to the VW district rep and he wasn't too pleased.

The point of that story is the messenger is the problem. Service manager/advisors are paid a commission on what they charge and can put anything they want on the invoice regardless of the actual time or material cost. I know the cost of running a business are high, but screwing the customer every chance you get isn't the way to run it.

[Aurel]

I bought a $20 USB OBDII cable off e-bay, downloaded some free software, and I can now hook up my netbook to the car and do pretty much anything a dealer can do. For free.

[cashflyer]

I want to hijack your thread to rant about my Dodge computer for a minute.

My 1999 Dodge Ram 3500 has been sitting dead since the end of February.
Why? Because the Cummins engine control computer died.
The Dodge dealership could replace it for $1300 plus labor, except that they have been back-ordered and have "no expected ship date". What? NO EXPECTED SHIP DATE???

Cummins says they cannot help because although the unit is made by them, it is made to Dodges specs and programming.

I've called 13 different salvage yards and they cannot help because the ECM has to be from a 4 year window of 1999 to 2002, and must be from a truck with a manual transmission. A proverbial "needle in the haystack".

I could go on and on, and want to, but this is your thread.
I just wanted to share my frustration.

[Deschodt]

Try modern BMWs for size... The dealers cannot read any info from the BUS anymore, anything like codes and diagnostics must now be sent to Germany to "support", and they send back a procedure to try. No manuals, no local computers, they've successfully encrypted all electronic communications in the car and locked out the independent mechanics (and their own dealers)... A friend who is a tech at a large BMW dealership told me "you'd be stupid to keep those cars one day past the warranty"...

[EarlyPorsche]

Originally Posted by cashflyer

I want to hijack your thread to rant about my Dodge computer for a minute.

My 1999 Dodge Ram 3500 has been sitting dead since the end of February.
Why? Because the Cummins engine control computer died.
The Dodge dealership could replace it for $1300 plus labor, except that they have been back-ordered and have "no expected ship date". What? NO EXPECTED SHIP DATE???

Cummins says they cannot help because although the unit is made by them, it is made to Dodges specs and programming.

I've called 13 different salvage yards and they cannot help because the ECM has to be from a 4 year window of 1999 to 2002, and must be from a truck with a manual transmission. A proverbial "needle in the haystack".

I could go on and on, and want to, but this is your thread.
I just wanted to share my frustration.

Just get it rebuilt.

DODGE PU DURANGO DAKOTA ABS ECM ECU REBUILD REPAIR: eBay Motors (item 380213486739 end time Jun-06-10 17:00:00 PDT)

I will PM this to you also in case you do not look at this page again.

[willtel]

One of the reasons I won't buy a new car is because of all the proprietary computers in them.

It is sort of like buying a house and being told that there are a few rooms you are not allowed to go in because you might break something.