Calling 1911 gurus.

[ODDJOB UNO]

i have watched nelson kick people out of his shop. he dont feek around. either he likes you or he hates you. you will either like him or hate him. no GREY AREA!



nelson has safes full of guns to work on.................FOR EVAR! he is in such high demand. his work IS THAT GOOD!


and once you subscribe to his doctrine, you are well on the way to becoming an honest to goodness SHOOTIST of the HIGHEST ORDER!



just snagged me a smith und vesson late production model 66-7. built for australian(upside down canucks) police contract. barely used. muy BUENO MUY EXCELLANTE CONDITION! came with pachmeyers from factory contract. real damn cheap. 4" barrel stainless .357.

like about $400 bucks less than a new stainless 686 4" .357 model.

late model 2002 -2004 production and its an "L" FRAME not "K" FRAME. "L" frame beefier. damn near exact dimensions as new 686 side by side.


calling smith und vesson customer service to check any recalls and history and to get owners manual(free to us anal shooters). insane good customer service.


theres another juan going to nelson for his supersmith job.

[dhoward]

Originally Posted by Bill Douglas

It would be interesting to see how it would perform in a Ransom Rest. Do any ranges or gun clubs in the area have one you can use.

Pffft.
Shoot it off of a sandbag.
Ok, well a Ransom rest would be ideal...
Shooting it offhand for any type of acurracy analysis is silly.

[ODDJOB UNO]

smith und vesson updatum on my recent screaming deal 66-7. this is why i love smith und vesson................CUSTOMER SERVICE just like ya get with nelson ford.


guy at smith bent over backwards researching this gem. mfgd on 12/13/04. no recalls ever. owners manual being sent out today. it is a "K" FRAME not a "L" frame like i was told this am. one of the last 1000 or so off the line as production ceased on this particular model 12/31/04.


they will refinish it and it is called "SATIN" finish for a nominal fee.



now as mentioned. customer service(KUNDENDIENST auf deutsch) is numero uno with me and nelson has taken the time to explain what werks and what doesnt. he has bent over backwards for me quite a few times and dropped what he was doing to get my stuff right. he is a shooting fool. be it his class III M-14, his .30 caliber belt fed browning, or pistols/rifles.



everyjuan has his opinions and some are good and some are wayyyy baddddd. nelsons opinions are from hands on shooting/custom work, not some stoopid gun test by some flatlander.


i recommend him every chance i get and not juan of my amigos has EVER BEAN DISAPPOINTED!


worth every penny and every bit of time for those that do this alot.



the only drawback...........................ONCE YA GET A SPOON CUSTOMIZED...............NOTHING ELSE IS EVER SAFE FROM CUSTOMIZING! $$$$$$$

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by dhoward

Pffft.
Shoot it off of a sandbag.
Ok, well a Ransom rest would be ideal...
Shooting it offhand for any type of acurracy analysis is silly.

Unless you are known to be able to shoot one hole groups offhand with other pistols...

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Unless you are known to be able to shoot one hole groups offhand with other pistols...

I was almost doing this today with my SIG's.

Update

Took the Commander to the range again today. Shot the same as before, a little tighter groups, but still way high and right. After the first shot, I remembered to aim low and left and did pretty well with it. Still, at 30' I was not making any kind of groups with it. WTF? I was shooting 230 gr. today. Eric C. was there and shot it a bit. He's left handed and his groups, while aiming for the bullseye were low and left, which was where I was aiming when I hit the bullseye.

OJU, I don't want to piss off Mr. Ford with a lot of questions. How much am I looking at for a reliability package from him?

I'm starting to think I'm not gonna be able to ever carry this gun. I feel very confident and competent with my SIG's and not so with my Commander.

[m21sniper]

First, drift the rear sight with a brass punch to bring the shot group in vertical line with the bullseye. Then experiment with various loads and find the one that shoots closest to the bullseye in said vertical plane. Each load can shoot to a distinctly different point of aim, especially when different bullet weights are used. Try some 165gr loads and some 185s, 200s, and 230s. See which weight shoots closest to the bullseye.

I think you'll get good results with the lighter weights.

Or, replace the sights entirely with adjustables.

2-3" is not really very good at 7yds though. I would get some trigger work done to help out in that dep't.

I've seen how you shoot your Sig. Based on your groups that i've seen that you shoot with it, that spoon is your soulmate. You two belong together. Just like me and my P7.

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

First, drift the rear sight with a brass punch to bring the shot group in vertical line with the bullseye. Then experiment with various loads and find the one that shoots closest to the bullseye in said vertical plane.

That sounds like a logical starting point. I'd probably spring for a set of adjustable (yet carry-friendly) Novaks.

I've seen how you shoot your Sig. Based on your groups that i've seen that you shoot with it, that spoon is your soulmate. You two belong together. Just like me and my P7.

Understatement of the year. RL is being modest when he says he is a "seasoned shooter". He was punching ragged holes all day long today. I on the other hand had a few ragged hole groups, but with way too many "flyers" and a bit of a flinch rearing it's ugly head from lack of practice.

[Rick Lee]

I'm blushing. My right hand is shaped like a SIG grip. I really have countless thousands of rounds through my SIG's. But then every time I get another one, it shoots perfectly out of the box. So it's not me. It's just that SIG's are great. My P226's trigger was a tad notchy today though. Off to Robar she goes!

Yes, I want to have some work done on the Commander. But I hate the idea of dumping more money into what is already the most expensive handgun I've ever bought just to make it shoot right. I usually steal them for a fraction of market value, so this one was a huge purchase for me. The more I look around and see what Wilson and Les Baer guns cost, the more I wonder why I love 1911's. They just don't shoot that great without dumping a ton of money into them. And my P7's shot just fine out of the box too for less than my Commander cost.

[m21sniper]

I lost my 1911 bug long ago. I still think they're very handsome, but there are many other firearms i would rather depend my life on. 1911's are just so finicky.

Besides, how are you ever realistically going to shoot any better a 10yd group with a handgun than this group that my used box stock P7 with full power +P+ JHP ammo did, the first day i owned it?

You seem to group just as well with your sig, so for the life of me, i don't know why you'd try and replace it with a gun that's really just as large.



With the Fastfire II HUD on it and any kind of decent lighting, my P7 has the accuracy of a lightning strike from God out to 25 yards.

I had my LCP to the range the other day too, and was shooting about 1.5" groups off hand at 7 yards with it, using the Crimson Trace laser.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

1911's are just so finicky.

In my experience, this is only when a manufacturer attempts to "improve" upon the original design with (unnecessary) tighter tolerances or "features" that (even slightly) change the operation or timing of the spoon. Stick with the original design, and things go well. Tart it up, and you need to spend $$$ fixing everything you just fked up with your "improvements". Unfortunately a lot of companies (Kimber and Para leap instantly to mind) don't make this second investment in ensuring their "enhancements" aren't screwing things up. Add to that the mass production mentality from some of the larger companies (that employ assemblers instead of gunsmiths) and you have a recipe for disaster.

I'm not talking sights, stocks, or cosmetic/ergonomic changes. I mean things like tighter slide/frame fit, tighter lug engagement, additional "safety" doohickeys, lighter springs, etc.

[m21sniper]

To me the key ingredient to any 1911 build is an integral feed ramp match grade barrel.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by BlueSkyJaunte

In my experience, this is only when a manufacturer attempts to "improve" upon the original design with (unnecessary) tighter tolerances or "features" that (even slightly) change the operation or timing of the spoon. Stick with the original design, and things go well. Tart it up, and you need to spend $$$ fixing everything you just fked up with your "improvements". Unfortunately a lot of companies (Kimber and Para leap instantly to mind) don't make this second investment in ensuring their "enhancements" aren't screwing things up. Add to that the mass production mentality from some of the larger companies (that employ assemblers instead of gunsmiths) and you have a recipe for disaster.

I'm not talking sights, stocks, or cosmetic/ergonomic changes. I mean things like tighter slide/frame fit, tighter lug engagement, additional "safety" doohickeys, lighter springs, etc.

Right on. A standard mil-spec 1911 will be one of the most reliable autos you can lay your hands on. Probably not the most accurate, but that was never the intent. Bulleye, or "2700" competitors have recognized for generations that attempts to significantly accurize one lead to finicky operation, but they have been willing to accept that in the game they play. Their modified guns never leave the range. Such shenanigans have no place in a carry or duty gun, though.

The same dynamic is at work here that I mentioned on my ".375 H&H" thread. Everyone wants the coolest, most accurate, most gee-wiz gun at the range to show off to their shooting buddies. A parkerized, mil-spec, fixed sight 1911 just don't do it these days. Especially one that shoots 3"-4" groups (at 25 yards by the way - what's with this 7 yard grouping? My range doesn't even have stands closer than 25...). No cool factor or bragging rights there. So the same dissease has infected the 1911 world - tighten them up in the name of accuracy (clearing a jam at the range or in a match is no big deal) and festoon them with so many adornments as to render them virtually useless in the real world.

Oh, and Rick - drift the rear sight and file it down. Re-file the notch a bit deeper if you have to. This is how one adjusts the sights on a "fixed" sight 1911. It's not the load, it's not your grip, it's not how you hold your mouth. It's the sights.

[ODDJOB UNO]

rickster, 1st did you put nite sights on it?

if yes, probably need to be drifted to correct POA(point of AIM)


if no, OEM sights may have been banged, drift sights again to correct POA.


if you still have yer target, bring it with you to the DR.

remember the DR. is by appt. ONLY!


bottomline here...................if this is yer carry guns(you and eric) I WOULD NOT DORK WITH THEM AT ALL! ie. BET YER LIFE ON THEM! have the DR. wave his magic wand.



heres the drill w/the DR.. he is busy ALWAYS. all you have to do is explain what you want, he will tell you that either what you want is GREAT or it is STOO-PID.


he will tell you what to do how to do it and why to do it in spades.



he is a SHOOTIST! if yer having this much problems getting groups bring yer target to show the DR. and a BOX OF PREMIUM FEDERAL MATCH .45 and tell him you want it range tested.


i havent a clue what the hell it will cost. too many variables. bad day at mfg. plant, you guys playing gunsmith, ammo, tolerances, your shooting ability, wind, solar flares, sunspots, barrel hot etc.



believe it or not he will tell you if its a keeper or a lemon, and yes there are lemon guns where fixing is just stoopid to do due to expense.



butt at the end of yer spoon psychiatric consultation session, he will present you with a BILL PAYABLE RIGHT THEN AND THERE! cash works wonders, he takes credit cards also.


so splain yer ailments and ya get a bill. if ya notice the sign on the wall it states " if ya want a rush job bring a box of federal .308 MATCH BTHP ammo" and he will rush it thru.



the DR. has my 1894 marlin lever stainless .44 mag right now. he has done about (5) spoons of various flavors for me this year so far. next up is the marlin 1894 stainless .357, then the build(again with even more uber goodies) on the springfield mcmillian/arrington super duper match M1A. yes i grabbed every SADLAK part for this they offer. it is over the top insane. dont EVEN want to know how much into it i have, but lets just say its a HELL OF ALOT! it should be able to shoot dingleberries off a flys butt at 1000 yds! thats with a springfield illuminated 4.5 X 14 range finder reticle on it. yes its heavy, yes its spendy, yes its a GIANT PITA to carry around, but it is OVER THE TOP fun sitting in a blind, watching an open area(very prevalent in northern az-juniper islands) with a water hole at dawn or dusk and sniping the hell out of 4 legged furry creatures. we took this years back to winona,az. east of flagstaff and north about 4 miles to the praire dog farm. the day prior we went out and set lil cones out at 100-200-300yds out to 1200yds. came back following dawn with kids and proceeded to vaporize the praire dawg colony with it. great practice doing yer "comeups" and changing range up or down on yer target knobs. as day got sunny, heat came into play,wind drift corrections etc. great practice for long range ge-schutzen.



and trust me the praire dawgs DID NOT LIKE US ONE IOTA! the buzzards sure did and so did the coyotes(the trickster).



the DR. is IN tues-sat. thegunsmith.com

[ODDJOB UNO]

i just reread yer post about not feeling a WARM FUZZY w/this commander. kind of mentioned the LEMON SYNDROME!



yeah man there are lemons from every mfg. just like our 911's not a damn bit different. some just become a MONEY PIT and NO WARM FUZZIES!



if its carry leave it as stock as ya can and only replace parts with UBER GOOD parts recommended by the DR>.



it doesnt matter who the mfg. is. or how damn much ya pay. some are insane accurate outta da box, and some are POS!



the DR. has done i think (3) of my .45 1911's now. you would be surprised what we did and didnt do and how well they shoot or OUTSHOOT in comparison to some $2500 spoons.




even my lil itty bitty baby ultra micro spring-a-ding .45 will dance milk jugs all day long with good ammo at 50yds.



the DR. is NOT INTO glitz and GLAMOUR B.S. parts. he will ONLY change out or install what is NEEDED. hell 3/4's of the time he shoots me in the ass with my beer soddened hair brain STOOPID better badder cooler dumbass ideas from a magazine!

[Rick Lee]

Accuracy is the only issue with this one. No FTF or FTE. Everything works fine and I love it otherwise. I'm sure it's not a lemon. I've owned other Commanders and this one is the nicest and functions the best. However, my dad has one of those real special ones, the kind that was made on a good day at the factory and just shoots like Gold Cup out of the box. Of course, he won't give it to me. But that's the kind of Commander I'm after.

Stupid question. If it shoots say 3" high and right at 21', do I drift the rear sight left or right?

[ODDJOB UNO]

drift in the direction ya want it to shoot.

[Jeff Higgins]

And file in the direction you want it to shoot.

On the rear sight, anyway. If it shoots high, file the rear. If it shoots low, file the front.

Peacemakers are a good example of "fixed sight" guns with built-in adjusability. They will all shoot low and left with standard for caliber loads. We file the front sight to raise point of impact to the desired level, and screw the barrel a little more into the frame to correct windage. Works like a charm. The only difference on a 1911 is that you can't screw the barrel in deeper, so the rear sight is in a dovetail so you can drift it.

[Rick Lee]

The sights are three dot, so filing isn't gonna change the orientation. Only repainting them would, right?

[Jeff Higgins]

Hmm... that makes it harder. Your only real option then is replacement with a lower rear or higher front.

Or you could always just paint over all three dots. I never have liked those things. It's impossible to get any sort of decent accuracy by trying to line up three dots. It's far, far easier to align a big fat post in a square notch, both for elevation and windage.

[ODDJOB UNO]

i went into the DR. wanting oh so bad night sites. he looks at me cross eyed and says WTF? are you a cop? i said "NO". he said WTF ya going out at night for? i said "i dont really i drink beer at home alone" and we started singing george thorogoods "i drink alone" in 2 part harmony. anyway the DR. showed me the katz azz super duper trick of all time for many spoons.



polished brass front sights(sites)! from across the room your eye will pick them up. and that aint NO POO!



he will set it up for you just like pointing yer finger at an object as if yer finger was the barrel.



instinctively you will point front sight at object you want to vaporize and wonders of wonders you will vaporize it.



the eye will pick these damn brass sights up far better than you realize until you do it. wayyyy better that the bobbing weaving crap of lining up 3-dots.



i have done this on also a number of revolvers. and the marlins have them also.



ask him about it and he will give a demonstration.



the only night sights(sites) he recommends is for small framed anything(revolver or semi) that you might actually pack concealed at night. or if yer a cop.


7-12 years life out of tritium no matter the mfg.


it really does become "point and shoot" with my eyes only looking at front sight(site).