Painters - a question about "Car Talk"

[herr_oberst]

On car-talk-click-and-clack-the-tappet-brothers (jeez, it would be wonderful if they were as funny as they thought they were, but I digress) the guys are always saying that black is the easiest color to color match to a car because "black is black"

In my profession, printing, nothing could be further from the truth, and I always wonder if what they are saying is actually true for the pros. I wonder if they are oversimplifying the case about black being a cinch. Thanks in advance, and I'll take your answers off the air.

[LWJ]

Heck if I know. On the subject of their "expertise," I recall a few years ago they told someone with an aircooled car (911? VW? It is forgotten) to check the coolant. I take their advice with a large dose of skepticism.

Larry

[Zeke]

My paint supplier says no. He says most blacks are really a dark, dark brown. I didn't believe him until I saw some real black up against a typical black car.

But, for all intents and purposes, black is not too bad to match because most can't see the difference. My car has three different paints on it, factory, 2 stage and single stage I did on he hood. Now, I can see the differences, before I could not.

[sailchef]

I just had two new front fenders (replacements) and a ducktail (new addition) painted black. Other than being pristine paint, I can't see a difference in color. It all depends I guess on the amount of wethering and oxidation on the old paint. I had the whole car painted 7 years ago and it still looks like a recent job.

My painter told me if it had been any other color he would have never agreed to do it.

[LeeH]

I would think that color would be easy to match for black, but getting the surface to match - gloss/orange peel, would be a bigger challenge as it's easier to see on black.

I've always like white cars since it's so easy to touch up rock chips.

[McLovin]

It depends on the specific application, but having painted a few cars, and done large "touch up" on others (spoilers, decklids, etc), for the most part, YES, "black is black."

Porsche nonmetallic black from the 70s and 80s, for example, is just pure "black." Very easy to match. Lots of other cars also use "pure" black (or close enough so you can't tell the difference).

I confirmed that with my pro paint supplier when I did a black car.

Like Lee says, black presents other challenges, though.

I've also done a few other colors. White is hard to match IMO. No car company uses "pure" white.

[Zeke]

Right on the white. Pure white would be what, the absence of any color? Appliance white is about as white as I see. I think it becomes subjective.

But, so does pure black. What is that, all colors viewed at once? Total absorption of all available white? Well, that won't happen on this planet.

Interesting thread.

[Lazarro]

Milt white reflects all colors whilst black absorbs all.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by milt

Right on the white. Pure white would be what, the absence of any color? Appliance white is about as white as I see. I think it becomes subjective.

But, so does pure black. What is that, all colors viewed at once? Total absorption of all available white? Well, that won't happen on this planet.

Interesting thread.

white means it reflects all visible colors, black absorbs all visible colors.
Same with a light emitting devices, add all colors together from a bunch of different colored lights and it will appear white.
Now when mixing pigment it is different, add all colors together and it makes black.

Clear as mother's milk, right?

[vash]

i love car talk. guessing the ills of cars is so much fun. i'm about 50/50 with their guesses, which i assume is about 50% correct on their part. fun stuff.

[kaisen]

I didn't read the entire thread, but black is NOT black. It is made up of several pigments/components and is translucent enough that the primer hue makes a difference. Paint the same black over black primer, gray primer, and red primer and see for yourself.
White is the same, but harder to match.

[speeder]

There are many different colors of black used on cars. Some manufacturers put blue in their black, some have red or green tint, etc...

[McLovin]

Originally Posted by speeder

There are many different colors of black used on cars. Some manufacturers put blue in their black, some have red or green tint, etc...

And some, like Porsche and others, don't put any blue, red, green, etc. in it. It's just "black."

[Buckterrier]

Black is the absence of color. Not all blacks are created equal. There are different black pigments which makes the difference. When I worked in automotive at the OEM level GM rejected a black color submission for being to yellow. The lab had to send me a violet dye to 'blue' it up, which worked.
BASF has always been known to have the blackest black.

[VaSteve]

20 years ago I worked at a shop where they mixed PPG paint for the body shops in the area. It was a "recipe" based on a scale. A can of "neutral paint" would weigh XX grams or whatever, and then you'd add xx grams of Color 1, xx grams of Color 2, etc till you hit the total. They had to do it in the order the cards stated. I never did it, the owner did, they did it all by hand. I saw all sorts of colors mixed into "white" or "black" or "blue" to get the recipe.

I'm sure there were tons of errors in the process, but I never recall a can coming back.

I certainly hope it's a bit more scientific now.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

My Mercedes is black (and yes, I believe they are one of the manufacturers who uses "real" black - it is significantly darker than other "black" run-of-the-mill cars when parked next to them). It is an absolutely awful color. You have to be obsessive about keeping the car SPOTLESS at all times or it will look filthy. Any little ding or scratch is magnified by at least 3X 4X on a black car. The upside is if you do keep them perfect and obsessively clean, they look awesome - I get compliments on my car all the time but I can say with 100% certainty that I will never, ever buy a black car ever again due to the amount of extra work required to have it not look like crap. At some point I will get the car repainted and will likely go for Mars Red (when I bought the car my #2 choice was a Mars Red model, but I liked my car better despite the fact I liked the red paint on the other model better).

Avoid black. It's an awful color - completely impractical.

[EarlyPorsche]

Digression: Is it just me or are click and clack pretty terrible when it comes to their advice?

[911Freak]

Having been a professional painter in a previous life I'll share my experience...

Auto paint colors are made up of a combination of pigment colors and metallic sizes including pearls. The first challenge is the factory standard. Today, the average paint code has between three to seven alternates (varying shades of color, metal flake, flop/shift etc) that are worth formulating. There is actually more but the auto paint manufacturers have narrowed them to down to keep the databases simple to use.

Most car manufacturers have three major paint suppliers. The manufacturer decides on a standard color for production and submits a painted sample/chip to their suppliers. The paint manufacturer then produces a formula for the standard sample and is allowed a tolerance of plus or minus 5% when they deliver the paint.

This is the first problem because the plant in the east coast may be getting a 5% shade greener on a blue metallic standard and the plant in the west coast may be getting a 5% shade violet on the same blue metallic standard. When compared side by side, they look like a completely different color. This is the reason the paint manufacturers usually have the standard formula followed by two alternates. If the alternates are not available, the painter in the body shop usually mixes the standard formula and tints it accordingly. Again, this is where a good experienced painter sets himself apart. I've seen a good painter really struggle to butt match white panels and get a blend-able formula straight out of the paint code for a complex pearl toner... Caffeine and alcohol have an negative effect on the eye that can impede seeing certain tints. The amount of red tint is a paint formula for example can elude a painter if he drank a lot of alcohol and caffeine within the last 12-24 hrs. More so if he's drinking and mixing formulas

The second reason for variances in paint colors is the metallic color applications. The metallic colors are now classified in 7 categories. Extra fine, fine, medium, medium coarse, coarse, and extra coarse. The metallic colors control the value (lightness and darkness) of the color similar to what white does in a pastel color. This can include 'pearl' flake (powder or liquid versions) that are now so prevalent in modern factory automobile paint finishes. To much pearl and you wash out the formula...

Metallic colors will cause variances in color when applied. Temperature, paint film thickness, flash off time between coats, fluid tip sizes, speed of the spray gun, surface type (Plastic or Metal) and humidity will all cause the color to shift lighter or darker.

The rule of thumb: the longer it takes to dry, the darker the color will change as it dries. This is caused by pigment flotation. The metallic flakes will settle down to the bottom of the paint film and push the pigment up causing the color to shift darker.

The reasons above only mention the variables at the car manufacturers level. So what happens to a color after three years of sunshine? Many people think that colors do not change, but they do as most of the guys here know. If you own a car that is at least three years old and has been out in the sun most of the time, remove a pinstripe and you will see the original color. Removing the stone guards on a Guards Red 911 is another example...

The sunlight has ultra-violet which has absorbed some of the pigments. Blue metallic colors sometimes shift to a greener shade, and reds will turn pinkish or more orange. The auto body painter has to deal with matching an oxidized color in addition to new OEM colors. The new paint to be applied will look brighter and cleaner but the rest of the car looks dead even if you polish it. Again, a great painter knows which toners to ad to the formula to get a 'dead' match...

Auto Body Shops today have a greater challenge than just color match or water based paint. As mentioned above the texture or (Orange Peel) also has to match the original finish in order for it to look pre-accident condition. This can be accomplished by using the proper spray gun, polishing equipment and most importantly in my opinion, experience.

A great painter knows just how much peel to cut with sanding to match the original panel. Porsche for instance has a good amount of orange peel. If a painter tries to deliver the smoothest finish on the panel he paints it won't match the adjoining panels level of peel.

Now back OT:
Black:
Blue Black (cool and deep) Red Black (rich and deep) Yellow Black (warm)

All black tones contain other colors (toners) in their formula. For instance one of the truest/simplest forms of black is GM (99/8555) which contains a little blue (for a darker deeper cooler tone), red (works with the blue for a deep liquid tone and several others. These additional toners are minuscule in ratio to the main toner which is "black", but they are there.

White: White is very similar in that there are cooler whites, containing transparent blue toner and a little black toner (Think Honda, Porsche GP), warmer whites containing red oxide, yellow oxide (Ford), and on and on...

A good professional paint supplier has a tool (chroma-scan) This is a process where they use a hand held scanner that analyzes the paint chip, and then looks up in a database for a currently produced automotive color that is closest to it. Then it lists out the toners that need to be added to match it exactly...

A good painter can take the original formula and ad toners to "butt match" a panel. This comes from years of experience. Another good trait of a real pro painter is matching aged paint, think a 60's or 70's single stage metallic paint that no longer has luster. An excellent painter can match the metal flake, flop (color shift or the difference of surface tone based on the angle of view) and gloss level or lack of...

[lm6y]

Once again, this place is awesome. I learn more here than I ever did in school.

[89911]

Both graduated from MIT. Thats got to mean something.