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He didn't hire framers to do the crown, they would have finished that day! Just get that wood up on the wall!
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Patrick |
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06-26-2010, 02:08 PM
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Owner/Builder Cost: Construction loan $395,000 permits/fees $ 54,000 =$449,000 ( $88.98 sq foot) we probably spent another out of pocket, not budgeted $2,000 per month on "things that came up" during the 11 months that it took from groundbreaking to occupancy. $24,000 . ( Feb 2008 - Jan 2009 ) So $756,900 -$395,000 -$ 54,000 -$ 24,000 = $283,900 profit for a general contractor to "build" my house. (and that was with Kitchen Aid appliances, standard height hollow core interior doors and who knows what other kind of cheap interior finishes) How many "jobs" does a typical custom home contractor "run" per year??? Two? $283 x 2 = $566,000 per year profit. Three? $283 x 3= $849,000 per year profit. Four? $283 x 4= $1,132,000 per year profit. I just thought that it was highly suspect that all three GC's looked at the plans and then came back with "$150 sq foot", with no itemizations/specifications for materials and without mentioning the square footage of the garage (880 sq ft) in the bids. The reality was, they had so much "money is no object" work in 2006 and 2007, they could have cared less whether they got my job or not. subcontracting a single family residence is easy, but it is time consuming. If I built again, I would use the exact same contractors for every single trade, excluding electrical. Which would make building a second, third, fourth house per year, that much easier. Sorry, but I just don't see the "need" for a general contractor. How can you possibly be sure of the quality of each individual Sub if you don't interview and check the work of each sub yourself???
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Silverwhaletail (used to love slutty women and run-down apartment buildings, not necessarily in that order) |
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06-26-2010, 05:48 PM
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Of course they come back at you with a specific amount per sq'. Why would they go through hell trying to get you specifics just to see if you might be interested in using their service (others have been very upset at me and want to slam doors at me face here on Off Topic because of this situtation). Have you ever itemization a job like that or even a 2500 sq' custom house? I am talking about really custom end not mid end off the self products. It can take you months calling various people. If you like their number, then you are expected to talk more with them about the job in detail. Most or all of those things should be in the plans and specs but often time, they are not, llike type of cabinets and plumbing and electrical fixtures. That's how they loose their a$$. I do not built, but I have done many custom whole house remodels. I often submit a bid for regular custom end cabinetw like maple and they except me to provide Teak or some exotic cabinetry because they have seen it at another client's home. Crazy. Last edited by look 171; 06-26-2010 at 06:24 PM.. |
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06-26-2010, 06:06 PM
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Location: Long Beach CA, the sewer by the sea.
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You may not see the need for a general contractor. You apparently know enough to pull it off by yourself. I'm not sure what you paid yourself during the 11 months. Just kidding, you got nothing except for the savings which was a nice paycheck.
Now as to a GC building 4 houses within a year's time, he'd need a million for the business to run. So, I see that GC making the 132K for himself. Numbers can mean anything you want them to. For every dollar I take in, I spend .48 on taxes and fixed overhead working out of the house. Then, I can have costs of sale. You didn't pay a "profit" so no taxes were collected. No costs either. I can't blame anyone who builds on a regular basis for examining plans and "estimating" the job on a sq ft projection. You make more on some and less on others. Here's a scenario that makes the difference: if the contractor has the job and you see something you don't like, he fixes it at his cost. If you are the owner/builder and any adjustments are on your dime, I bet the swiftest and least costly solution is employed. Contractors rarely get that benefit as homeowners tend to snivel endlessly. Lastly, the State of CA requires any new home builder to stand behind the construction for 10 years. You have absolutely no more protection than the 2 years a licensed contractor has to provide on his part. If you used "employees." you get nothing. If I have to watch over your home for 10 years, I'm building that in. Of course, that's what makes me a thief. |
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06-26-2010, 06:20 PM
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FYI, one of the contractors who "experienced his worst nightmare" with me is a well regarded Pelican with 3,439 posts. He owns what I would consider a large concrete contracting company who's business is, I think 90% commercial hardly any residential. His company poured my foundation (code + another 3 inches, right to the top of the forms per my request) and did a fantastic job on the slab. (the tile/granite company commented on the superb flatness of the pour and finish while installing the 18"travertine) I went back to the Pelican at the end of the project to bid the flatwork, but his company does not do stamped/colored concrete. Every square inch of our driveway, sidewalks and rear patio is stamped, except for the front steps from the street, so we went with a different company, who is actually right next door to him.) Oh and one more thing. We completed the job with only one Lien placed against us. The company who did the automatic fire sprinklers messed up the drywall texture around one of the sprinklers in the kitchen and I withheld $250 of the final payment to compensate myself for the cost to re-texture/repaint. That was the only adversarial relationship that we had with any of the contractors, and that was finally resolved well after occupancy. And Milt, since your a window man, go ahead and ridicule me for choosing Home Depot, Jeld-Wen Brand, aluminum clad, double hung, gridded, low E, WOOD windows. I neglected to mention that the guys who painted and hung the crown and base also painted all of the windows, and trimmed out and painted all of the windows. Every single window has casing. Two months was a long time, especially at the end, when you are itching to move in, but there are alot of windows and doors in this house. A tractor trailer truck was needed to deliver all of the base, crown, casings and moldings. You guys are brutal. I feel stupid for even posting about this now...
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Silverwhaletail (used to love slutty women and run-down apartment buildings, not necessarily in that order) |
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06-26-2010, 06:26 PM
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(909)688-1391 • info@ranchoframing.com John Williams Owner I highly recommend them.
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Silverwhaletail (used to love slutty women and run-down apartment buildings, not necessarily in that order) |
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06-26-2010, 06:28 PM
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Hey pal, you might think we're brutal, but you're the one that started this off calling contractors "F'ing thieves." What the f did you expect, an invitation to dinner?
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06-26-2010, 06:48 PM
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Every GC is an LLC. If he gets sued, he closes the LLC on Friday and starts up business under a new LLC on Monday. Im not interested in warranties. I was Onsite EVERY SINGLE DAY, usually multiple times per day. I know how this house was built. Because of the construction slowdown, EVERY SINGLE FRAMER on my job was a WHITE foreman with AT LEAST 20 years experience. The non-white guys showed up only on the day that they lifted the walls on the first floor and then on the day that they lifted the walls on the second floor. Other than those two days, EXPERIENCED WHITE GUYS shot every nail that went into this house. the only non-licensed, non insured trade that we "took a chance on" was the exterior stucco guy. We were quoted $45,000 for "smooth stucco" by all of the licensed contractors. We used a guy from Santa Ana who is used by a high end homebuilder buddy of mine on all of the jobs that my friend spec builds for himself. he did it for less than half that. We got the look that we wanted ( 1930's Hancock Park, west of downtown Los Angeles) at a price that we were willing to pay. I ensured quality by constant involvement. Maybe I'll be okay on that, maybe I won't. But There is no way that I was going to pay a million dollars for a half million dollar structure.
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Silverwhaletail (used to love slutty women and run-down apartment buildings, not necessarily in that order) Last edited by silverwhaletail; 06-26-2010 at 07:01 PM.. |
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06-26-2010, 06:55 PM
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please re-read my original post. I believe i was referring to General Contractors and city governments. My bad. Sorry if I offended.
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Silverwhaletail (used to love slutty women and run-down apartment buildings, not necessarily in that order) |
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06-26-2010, 06:58 PM
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You saw the green right?? Is this contractor a fkin thief too?
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Patrick |
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06-26-2010, 07:01 PM
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Why do I bring this up? Well, for one, I know costs for high end work. Two, I know what can come up on any given day due to any number of reasons. I'm happy you could build a 5000 sq ft house after reading some books. No freakin' way could you have done what I did in WLA. I had 6 engineering changes in the process that all went thru the city of LA. That's just remodeling when you are dealing with a 1929 classic Spanish home. You diss contractors as thieves.You diss contractors as starting up as a new LLC each week if they get in trouble. You can expect some flak here with that attitude. BTW, if you bought windows at the Home Depot, I can absolutely guarantee you did not get the best price. A good contractor would know that. Hope you didn't buy your drywall or lumber there. My bad. Sorry if I offended. Hollow. Really hollow. You ought to use that expression a little more meaningful. I'm done here. I'm so pissed off at you and your kind that I hope to never see or meet you at any Porsche event. |
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06-26-2010, 07:26 PM
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If GC's made the profit/money your talking about, they would be billionaires. I used to work for a very large privately owned builder for 18 years and we realized .07 on every dollar of revenue.
Been a licensed GC and residential home builder for 15 years. Last edited by A930Rocket; 06-27-2010 at 11:14 AM.. |
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06-26-2010, 07:31 PM
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Jeld Wen, jeez. Maybe a Loewen clad or Fleetwood aluminum minimum. I commend you on your home. I think the subs you used are probably calling GCs for work, not homeowners. After reading your bio listing your occupation as "dirty cop" and that you like to "shoot people" I think I'll wander away from this thread, kidding or not. I have plenty of work, plenty of satisfied customers, and even have letters from people who didn't use me wishing they had. Peace.
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Patrick |
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06-26-2010, 07:53 PM
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Damn, I'm sorry to see this thread go so far south. I have to say that in general I was really happy with the subs I worked with on my house, and had/have a great deal of trust and respect for them. Even though I was completely new at it, they did their best to provide me with quality work and went out of their way to fit in schedule wise. I've found out since that they gave me the best in the way of features and finish, though at the time I did't know much about the difference. I didn't snivel about extra costs. Whenever something could be done better with a little more money or time and work, I authorized it and paid for it happily. Likewise, if I built another house, I'd come close to using the same people again. I've also had a number of people ask me about the subs I used and gave them really good recommendations. I don't feel like I got cheated and was happy to save some money not because I begrudged a GC making it. I had the time and wanted to watch over the project and enjoy the experience - which I did and it was due in good part to the guys working in the trade.
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06-26-2010, 10:05 PM
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06-26-2010, 11:11 PM
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I was on when the thread unravelled, and had to laugh. It's not personal, of course. Every professional, in any field, understands the value of his trade. He or she wouldn't exist if they didn't add value. Any job. Any trade. Any business.
I said 85% because there are always going to be people who don't appreciate the work we all do. Either they don't fully understand what you do, the risks involved, the education/preparation involved, or the overhead and expense involved. Some of the 15% choose to do the work themselves. Some get lucky and things work out. Some don't. Any time you do something yourself, you are giving up the opportunity to do something else with your time. In this case, if you'd rather spend your hours babysitting the homebuilding process than working at your own business or spending quality time with family and friends, understand that your time wasn't free. If you want to get involved in swinging hammers, painting, or nailing trim, there is more money to be 'saved' if you have more time to 'spend'. Most of us are on Pelican because we don't mind tinkering on cars. The Do It Yourself experience is rewarding. Sometimes financially, but mostly self-satisfaction. But do most people work on their own cars? Nope, not 85% of the public. Could you do your own work on anything and everything? Sure, but again 85% of people do not. They hire it done. I chuckled at Milt because he has seen me defend my own profession. Similarly, most here do not see the value add in what I do. It's okay to attack the auto industry and call us effin' thieves. Almost all of you take jabs. Lawyers, general contractors, doctors (if you pay with your own cash), car dealers, morticians..... they are all thieves to someone. I take pride in what I do. My customers are very happy. Many return. Same with contractors and tradesmen. |
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06-27-2010, 08:52 AM
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I'll say it once more.
I have no problem with tradesmen or single trade contractors. My issue is with General Contractors who "build" custom homes and expect what I feel is obscene compensation for simply managing the project. I have not met any GC custom home builders whom actually have "employees." These GC custom home builders simply obtain bids from tradesmen with whom they have ongoing working relationships, and then "sub out" the jobs to these sub contractors. I am an idiot policeman with ZERO home construction experience, and yet, I was able to build a good sized custom home in 11 months, from groundbreaking to occupancy. I worked my regular job (3 pm to 1 am, 4 days per week) and went to the job site on all of my days off and in the morning, before I went to work. My wife is a stay at home mom, and she was also intricately involved on a daily basis. I have been a policeman for a long time. I meet a lot of people, including contractors, through my job. I do my job in a manner that causes people to like me. When I contacted them and told them that I planned to build a house, they were eager to help me. They referred their tradesmen friends to me. Their tradesmen friends liked me and referred me to their tradesmen friends. It was all very easy. Time consuming but easy. We are not talking about esoteric skills/abilities/training here. Two or three years ago, any idiot with good credit and a decent income could get a loan for any amount of money that he asked for. Many of these people ran to GC's who said, "$150 a sq ft." The people replied, "Where do I sign?" And now many of these people are losing their homes and lenders are losing their a$$es. All I know is that we paid less than $500,000 for what I consider a $500,000 structure. MANY people that I know, including some of my neighbors, paid $700,000 - $800,000 for what I would consider a $300,000 or $400,000 structure. (I am leaving the purchase price of the dirt out of the equation.) My house is not super high-end but it is very comfortable, roomy, well equipped, sturdy and we think nice. To each his own.
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Silverwhaletail (used to love slutty women and run-down apartment buildings, not necessarily in that order) |
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06-27-2010, 12:12 PM
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Silverwhaletail (used to love slutty women and run-down apartment buildings, not necessarily in that order) |
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06-27-2010, 12:23 PM
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JOT MON ABBR OTH
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Location: USA
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SWT,
My GC planned to make about 5% on our build. Our house was an experiment for both of us. He made closer to 10% as we found ways to cut costs in the build. Our house allowed him to know what he could bid and remain profitable on future constructions using good manufacturing techniques. Costs can be decreased in home building! Take out fancy roof lines, remove as many corners in the home as possible. Our home was a rectangle with a large front porch. Nothing too sexy on the outside! Very plain as far as drafting was concerned, I was the draftsman/designer. Material costs were kept to a BAREST minimum! We went with measurements that could be supplied stock from vendors. Very little custom cutting on site! I did ALOT of work on the home! We used reclaimed paper and fiberglass solid fill insulating material and sprayed it in over 6" thick in the walls and ceiling. Metal proved to be the cheapest material to use at the time for us! 6" tube steel, steel I-beams, and 8" C purlin all contributed to a solid outer frame. The maths showed a wind load resistance of ~140 MPH. I never felt anyting inside the house and could not hear the outside world if the windows were not fully opened. We had custom cabinets made from wood harvested locally to cut costs. We used wood that was over 100 years old for the flooring. The tile was all closeouts bought at deep discounts. We used metal for the interior framing walls. Two guys took two days to frame out the entire house. Again, straight lines meant very little cutting and trimming of metal. The guys were mainly putting the studs in place and screwing in. Vaulted ceilings meant very little support work. All was attached to the I-Beams and C Purlin. It took a long time for the crew of five to put in the drywall and two days to tape and mud with a large crew. I put in wood cross bars where the photos, TV, shelves, mirrors, and clothing rods would hang in closets. I used re-claimed lumber for my cross bars. I bought 2x4 and 2x6 by 8-14 foot for $1.00 per piece. They had been used as forms for foundations and I had to remove nails. IF you are willing to invest alot of your own time and be constructive on building materials you can build for less money! We have re-done much of our fifty year old home in Indiana using locally sourced materials and one of a kinds. I redid the bathroom surround from ceiling to tub for less than $200.00. It has two 36" safety bars and porcelean tile. I paid less than $.25 per tile. The faucet was the most expensive item as it was new, first run stock. What ever you do, make sure you have a GC! Whether the GC is just a consultant or they handle the majority of your work. A professional on your side is most helpful. We would NEVER have been able to do what we did in Texas without a good GC!
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David '83 SC Targa (sold  ) MANLY babyblue honda '00 F250 7.3L (MINE!)'15 F250 Gas (Her Baby) '95 993 (sold )I don't take scalps. I'm civilized like white man now, I shoot man in back. |
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06-28-2010, 04:45 AM
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maybe I need to be more careful when hiring people to work on my house. Last week my guy with an excavator was an EXPERIENCED BLACK GUY. If only I'd known!
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Jake Often wrong, but never in doubt. '81 911 euro SC (bits & pieces) '03 Carrera 4s '97 LX450 / '85 LeCar / '88 Iltis + a whole bunch of boats Last edited by notfarnow; 06-28-2010 at 06:20 AM.. |
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06-28-2010, 06:17 AM
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