Calling 1911 gurus.

[Rick Lee]

Ok, just got back from putting 100 rds. through my almost new Series 80 Commander. She ain't ready for carry duty yet, but will be.

Groups were reliably 2-3" at seven yds., but always 2-3" high and right of dead center. Once I compensated by aiming that far low and left, I was able to keep half-dollar sized bullseye groups. I plan on Novak or Trijicon night sights, possibly contrasting Tru-Glo fiber optic sights. So I'm not worried about fixing this high and right issue yet. But I'm wondering if a guide rod will help here. I have one in my full size Springer and it's pretty accurate. What kind of tuning do I need if not a guide rod? Feeding is fine. The checkered wooden grips really bit my hands, so I ditched them for rubber ones after I was done on the range. I don't think that will make too much difference. And man, did accuracy suck at 10 yds. My SIG's are still way more accurate, but I like the size and feel of a Commander. So I want to bring this one up to par for carry duty. I won't carry anything I can't shoot at an expert level though.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Everyone I have ever talked to or written to--this includes some well-known 1911 pistol smiths--has expressed ambivalence about full-length guide rods (FLGR) vs. the standard-length GI guide rod. The advice I have received can be summed up as "if it comes with one, leave it in...if it doesn't, leave it alone."

The only case where it has been recommended is when the shooter need to reduce muzzle flip. Installing a heavy FLGR (tungsten or mercury-filled) can help with this. Unless you're shooting a space/race gun there's probably very little need to bother.

Edit--I'm a little confused, after re-reading your post. Your groups are nice and small at 7 yards but really bad at 10?

[MotoSook]

Not a guru, but I don't think the guide rod will make a difference. Actually, lots of guys ditch the guide rod for a GI setup to make it easier to disassemble.

It's either the sights or the trigger needs some work.

What's the muzzle look like?

Did you try shoot from rest (on a bench)?

[Rick Lee]

I shot from a bench, but standing up and not leaning on anything.

[Bill Douglas]

I'm no expert but....

Are you hanging onto it firmly, but not so firmly that you shake. And are you squeeeeezing off the trigger.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by Bill Douglas

I'm no expert but....

Are you hanging onto it firmly, but not so firmly that you shake. And are you squeeeeezing off the trigger.

Uh, yes. I'm a seasoned shooter. I know what I'm doing there. Perhaps I'm just too spoiled from all the super accurate SIG's I own or have owned. My first Commander and ParaOrdnance P-12 were hard to shoot straight too. The last Commander I had was a Lightweight, beat to hell, no custom work and it shot totally straight. My dad's Series 70 hasn't had anything done to it and it shoots very straight too.

[ODDJOB UNO]

oh grasshopper...........so many questions so lil time.


1st are ya gonna carry the damn thing at night(kind of heavy)? if yes buy trijicons. ya get about 7 years out of them.

2nd what kind of ammo were we using? cheap ass ammo or quality ammo. this will make a huge difference. pick up federal remington magtech and shoot a mag and then take wet cold rag from yer 6 pak ice chest and lay over gun until cold to hand. then shoot another flavor and see how it groups with other flavors.

3rd when all else fails and yer almost ready to pull the trigger on every midway/brownell goodie part................STOP and step away from the pistole. DONT DO NOTHING! put pistole in holster/rug and get in car. drive to thegunsmith.com (32nd and shea)nelson ford. tell him i sent you. now shut the hell up and listen to DR. NELSON FORD! he knows more than most and does this for a living. LISTEN TO HIM and DO WHAT HE SAYS!


and when hes done you will have a shooter. now since anybody whose anybody at DEA/FBI/ICE/MILTARY/MCSO/PHX P.D. etc takes their shooters there, he knows what the hell hes doing. dont argue with him dont PISS HIM OFF! do exactly what he says and yer life WILL BE BETTER as well as YER PISTOLES!


i just saw him sat. call him before you go. i mean it. call before you go cuz thats how he rolls, cuz he can.



now back to night sites yes or no. i wanted night sights on my full sized frames. he said "WHY" do you carry that at night? i said "NO" so we went with a brass bead. and damn if yer eye doesnt pick up that brass sight from across the room. on my lil ultra micro stainless .45 springfield we put night sites on it. aside from the rest of his MAGIC WAND TREATMENT!


and thats how i can accurately dance milk jugs from 50 yds rapid fire all damn day long.


listen to me on this. dont argue with him, dont talk politics. DONT PISS HIM OFF HE WILL THROW YOU OUT! and you will have lost the BEST GUNSMITH THIS STATE HAS EVER KNOWN!



now lets see here what has nelson done fer me?????????


marlin 45/70

3 various .45's

2 ruger 10/22's

3 winchester 30/30's

4 smith and wessons revolvers

1 m-1 carbine

coming up he'll be working on a M1A and some work on my ruger .22 pistole

oh yeah he does a hell of alot of all the GUNSITE VEAPONS!



he is good and SPECIALIZES IN 1911's and SMITH UND VESSONS.


mark my words if ya piss him off(and he can be a real PRICK) and i hear about it i will KICK YER ASS!


just DO AS THE DOCTOR SAYS and YOU TOO WILL AMAZE EVERYJUAN WITH YOUR .45 PISTOLE PROWESS!

[Rick Lee]

Actually, I used three types of ammo. I used the cheapo Wolf, then the nice Aguila and then Federal HydraShoks, all 230 gr. I need to decide on sights before I tell anyone to cut a front dovetail. I like my Trijicons and they will replace the gas capsules for $54 total if you mail them your slide. I'm almost ready for my third set on my P220, which, BTW, was scary accurate today.

[ODDJOB UNO]

go to the doctor. do not use wolf ever again. aguila is pushing it.


shoot what the hell yer gonna BET YER LIFE ON! you cant use subpar ammo to group or set sights.


yes rick this just might cost you some $$$ to get it right...............or you can have nelson save you a hell of alot of money by setting sights and test firing. and then you go out and piss yerself silly at how well it works.


i have bean taking spoons to him for EVER. i pick up spoon, go buy some federal, shoot the hell out of it and piss all over myself how well they work each and every time. the guy is amazing. beyond words.


if this is yer carry then HANG THE EXPENSE! read his menu. pick what entree ya want. and be prepared to have a shooter like no other you have.


when its done he will call you. dont BUG HIM!


sat i dropped $218 on my smith 60 .357 for supersmith job and brass bead front sight. i always pay upfront. why? cuz he cranks it out very fast before others.

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Uh, yes. I'm a seasoned shooter. I know what I'm doing there. Perhaps I'm just too spoiled from all the super accurate SIG's I own or have owned. My first Commander and ParaOrdnance P-12 were hard to shoot straight too. The last Commander I had was a Lightweight, beat to hell, no custom work and it shot totally straight. My dad's Series 70 hasn't had anything done to it and it shoots very straight too.

You know after finger-forking it the other day, I thougt I liked the short trigger, but that may be contributing to the problem. Maybe a longer (match) trigger would help, as you may have less of a tendancy to pull to the right (if right handed). Just something to think about.

Also, you might listen to OJ and have a reliability pkg, and trigger job done by a local smith. We are fortunate to have a few gurus here locally. Ford comes highly recommended: http://www.thegunsmith.com as does Ted Yost (and Jason Burton): Heirloom Precision and Chuck Rogers in Prescott: ROGERS PRECISION

[ODDJOB UNO]

rick no matter how much anyjuan here thinks they have the baddest azz spoon on the planet.........................EACH AND EVERYJUAN HAS FLAWS!


gun mfgs ONLY THINK THIS WAY:


1) profit

2) liability

3)performance


i dont know about YOU or ANYJUAN ELSE but i sure as hell dont think about numbers 1 and 2. so performance and reliability take a back seat.


now if you have some farm implement single shot shotgun that you use once every 20 years thats OK.


butt with us kind of folks that carry and do ser-i-ass target/combat wombat /hunting type shooting the only option is to fine tune the product no matter how much ya paid or who the mfg is.

now example: my lil "J" frame .38 stainless. back in 95 when it was produced they came with floating firing pin. floating firing pin takes a number of ops to mfg/machine/install. along comes these dumbazz lawsuits against gun mfgs. and suddenly a perfectly fine solution to misfires suddenly gets thrown in the poo can and a new POS firing pin is designed because of the need for an integral lock and its less expensive to produce. sooooooooooooooooo..................with that in mind unless you have a custom gun built from scratch and pay el supremo pesos, you are basically getting a pistol built on LOWEST BID, no matter who you buy it from.




sooooooooooooooo.....call dr. nelson ford. he WILL SOLVE ALL YER PROBLEMS! and YOU DO HAVE PROBLEMOS cuz it doesnt shoot fer POO!


and you have an IN with ME! and like i said.............PAY UP FRONT and it will be DONE MUCHO RAPIDO!


then blast 200 rds of quality ammo to break it in. tear apart and clean and THEN TAKE TO ROBAR. the money spent on ROBAR will pay for itself X 1000 with how little you have to clean and lubricate it.


heres another mfg debacle about springfields. springfield decided in their infinite wizdumb to cheapen up their extractors. yep you guessed it massive FTE situations. after learning this from the DR. i wouldnt OWN a springfield without a TITANIUM EXTRACTOR. see each and every mfg is a CHEAP AZZ in their own lil way.


go see the DOCTOR and STEP AWAY and you will be happy and YOU WILL THANK ME!


give all the wolf ammo to some idiot who likes cleaning his spoon for hours.

[Rick Lee]

Actually, most of my SIG's have some portion of them redone in Robar's NP3, so the dirty ammo is no problem just wiping the guns down with paper towels. I had probably 10k rounds through my main P220 before I had an extractor problem.

Not sure I can bring myself to have this Commander done in NP3. My Springer is and it's almost too slippery to rack the slide back. I do have a spare skeletonized 1911 trigger laying around, so I might reinstall it and have a trigger job done. I will call Mr. Ford when I get back from my trip later in the week.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Ok, just got back from putting 100 rds. through my almost new Series 80 Commander. She ain't ready for carry duty yet, but will be.

Groups were reliably 2-3" at seven yds., but always 2-3" high and right of dead center.

If it does that consistently, simply adjust the sights. Sometimes "adjustment tools" are a file and a drift and a hammer, if it has issue "fixed" sights.

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

But I'm wondering if a guide rod will help here. I have one in my full size Springer and it's pretty accurate. What kind of tuning do I need if not a guide rod?

Sounds like you are assuming something is wrong with the gun because it doesn't shoot to the sights. You are right, there is - the sights are miss-adjusted. A "guide rod" won't change that. I put that in quotes because the gun already has a guide rod, and I assume you mean a full length guide rod. A full length guide rod should not affect point of impact. If it does, then there is something wrong with it or the installation.

Full length guide rods are a funny thing. Thirty years ago, they were de rigeur, with everyone who was anyone in the 1911 world espousing their virtures. All the cool dudes had one. That's how you could tell they were... Nowadays, the pendelum has swung the other way. It's cool to say a full length guide rod is uncool - a sure sign of a duffer who doesn't know what he is doing.

Way back when, most 1911's were military surplus or, at best, built to somewhat sloppy military standards of fit. A full length guid rod may have served to tighten some of these up a bit. Today, most 1911's originate as civilian guns, built to higher standards of fit and finish. They are a lot tighter. Full length guide rods don't do a thing for these guns. They don't hurt them, but they don't help them either.

One advantage the "tactical" crowd likes to point out about the full length guide rod has to do with shooting from cover. When shooting over a barricade under stress, one likes to keep as low as possible. Sometimes the gun gets stubbed against the barricade as it is presented. 1911's with the short guide rod have allegedly been known to be pushed back out of battery enough to keep from firing, if that guide rod cover is pushed up against the barricade. A full length guide rod won't allow that to happen. Seems a bit of a stretch to me, but that's what the kids say.

[pitargue]

how loose is the barrel bushing on the front of the spoon?

[Rick Lee]

Not loose at all. Gun is almost new.

[ODDJOB UNO]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Actually, most of my SIG's have some portion of them redone in Robar's NP3, so the dirty ammo is no problem just wiping the guns down with paper towels. I had probably 10k rounds through my main P220 before I had an extractor problem.

Not sure I can bring myself to have this Commander done in NP3. My Springer is and it's almost too slippery to rack the slide back. I do have a spare skeletonized 1911 trigger laying around, so I might reinstall it and have a trigger job done. I will call Mr. Ford when I get back from my trip later in the week.

the combo of dr. nelson and dr. robbie(robar) CANNOT BE BEAT! nuthing finer.


i have so many spoons and shoot so often i hate cleaning them. i only take (2) out at a time, since my cleaning style is full disassembly and using a q-tip. having robar on any semi-auto really makes my life simpler. it comes down to how much time ya want to spend on them.


as mentioned a tight gun shoots tight groups. butt a tight gun(racegun) has MORE FTF and FTE problemos due to grit sand dust and all the crap we get to deal with here. try riding a quad/dirty bike/jeep behind yer buddies or kids for 80 miles sucking dust and yer guns getting totally covered in crap and then see how a tight gun shoots. they wont. and thats reality.


if you take a WW II 1911 and shake it , it will rattle alot cuz they were set up loose to allow for crap(sand/mud/etc.) getting into action and they still go bang all the time.



rick the next sw regional 3 gun shoot ya need to take yer camera and see what is being used and how hard they are used in crap conditions. they are actually abused to the level of combat. and you will notice most survive the match because they are set up loose.


and at these matches you will be surprised at what works and doesnt work. it was a real eye opener for me. dr. nelson sets a hell of alot of these up.



just go in and tell him exactly what you want it for. combat wombat, carry,punching paper, hunting, and he will steer you to 1911 UTOPIA!

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Talk to Dr. Ford but heed Mr. OJ's warnings.

Yost & Co. at Heirloom are sadly only taking on full builds, last time I asked. Perhaps (though not likely) the economy has changed that policy. I *think* they'll do a Commander-length gun but Jason Burton told me they will NOT do Officer length due to inherent reliability concerns.

[dhoward]

+1 Jeff.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Ok, just got back from putting 100 rds. through my almost new Series 80 Commander. She ain't ready for carry duty yet, but will be.

Groups were reliably 2-3" at seven yds., but always 2-3" high and right of dead center. Once I compensated by aiming that far low and left, I was able to keep half-dollar sized bullseye groups. I plan on Novak or Trijicon night sights, possibly contrasting Tru-Glo fiber optic sights. So I'm not worried about fixing this high and right issue yet. But I'm wondering if a guide rod will help here. I have one in my full size Springer and it's pretty accurate. What kind of tuning do I need if not a guide rod? Feeding is fine. The checkered wooden grips really bit my hands, so I ditched them for rubber ones after I was done on the range. I don't think that will make too much difference. And man, did accuracy suck at 10 yds. My SIG's are still way more accurate, but I like the size and feel of a Commander. So I want to bring this one up to par for carry duty. I won't carry anything I can't shoot at an expert level though.

Use lighter bullets, it will group lower.

You can drift the rear sight to compensate for the windage adjustment.

At 7yds, honestly, you should be shooting much smaller groups than that.

A match grade barrel with integral feed ramp is a magnificent investment in any 1911.

[Bill Douglas]

It would be interesting to see how it would perform in a Ransom Rest. Do any ranges or gun clubs in the area have one you can use.