Renewable Energy - A Success Story in Portugal

[jyl]

We've had threads on renewable energy, but I don't think the case of Portugal has been mentioned.

If you are interested, this is worth a read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/10/science/earth/10portugal.html

Nearly 45 percent of the electricity in Portugal’s grid will come from renewable sources this year, up from 17 percent just five years ago

the energy transformation required no increase in taxes or public debt, precisely because the new sources of electricity, which require no fuel and produce no emissions, replaced electricity previously produced by buying and burning imported natural gas, coal and oil.

the energy transformation required no increase in taxes or public debt, precisely because the new sources of electricity, which require no fuel and produce no emissions, replaced electricity previously produced by buying and burning imported natural gas, coal and oil.

the total investment in revamping Portugal’s energy structure will be about 16.3 billion euros, or $22 billion, that cost is borne by the private companies that operate the grid and the renewable plants and is reflected in consumers’ electricity rates. The companies’ payback comes from the 15 years of guaranteed wholesale electricity rates promised by the government.

Once the new infrastructure is completed, Mr. Pinho said, the system will cost about 1.7 billion euros ($2.3 billion) a year less to run than it formerly did, primarily by avoiding natural gas imports.

[sammyg2]

What were their electricity rates before and what are they now?

I'm betting they more than doubled. Hoo-freaking-ray!

[The Gaijin]

I read it and it is short on specifics.

"Portugal is now on track to reach its goal of using domestically produced renewable energy, including large-scale hydropower, for 60 percent of its electricity and 31 percent of its total energy needs by 2020.."

How much is wind, how much is solar and how much is hydropower? Typical NY Times - long on spin and short on details.

[Icemaster]

And how big is Portugal compared to the US?

[john70t]

A lot of countries have made progress with renewable resources. Here in the 'ol USA, our barefoot grandchildren will dig grubs and carry disentary water in complete freedom.

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"Shai Agassi boldly predicts one-third of Israel’s cars will run on electricity within five years."

[Danimal16]

Originally Posted by Icemaster

And how big is Portugal compared to the US?

About 25% the size of California.

[Icemaster]

Originally Posted by john70t

A lot of countries have made progress with renewable resources. Here in the 'ol USA, our barefoot grandchildren will dig grubs and carry disentary water in complete freedom.

And how big is Israel in comparison to the US?

[AFC-911]

Originally Posted by Icemaster

And how big is Israel in comparison to the US?

Ok, so name me a state or a city with comparable population in the US that's putting the kind of effort into renewable energies as Portugal & Israel...

[Jagshund]

In regards to electric cars, they work better in other areas due to the length of commute. Sprawl has killed any chance we have of using current electric cars full-time, aside from people who purposefully limit their area of travel for the purpose of greenliness.

[MarKoBrow]

Originally Posted by AFC-911

Ok, so name me a state or a city with comparable population in the US that's putting the kind of effort into renewable energies as Portugal & Israel...

Not one. Most countries also don't make the " green" argument either, for most it is strictly a financial decision. High upfront cost low operating cost. Here it has become a very boring political conversation based on untruths and conjecture.

[sammyg2]

Electricity from nukes costs about 2 cents per kwh. From natural gas or coal, about 4 cents per kwh. From wind, about 12 cents per kwh. From solar, about 16 cents per kwh. Hydroelectric is actually cheap until you factor in the cost of building the dam.
Sorry, that is reality.

If a country wants to pay 16 cents per kwh, they can go all renewable.
Pretty expensive bragging rights if you ask me.

How much is smug worth?

[RWebb]

not worth much, until you get the facts right

the costs you quote do not include the subsidies to fossil fuels, esp. oil - the health costs of pollution for one; the costs of keeping a major military presence in the Mid-East; the costs of destroying a major fishery

[cstreit]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

How much is smug worth?

I dunno, what's a iPhone run these days.

[MarKoBrow]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

Electricity from nukes costs about 2 cents per kwh. From natural gas or coal, about 4 cents per kwh. From wind, about 12 cents per kwh. From solar, about 16 cents per kwh. Hydroelectric is actually cheap until you factor in the cost of building the dam.
Sorry, that is reality.

If a country wants to pay 16 cents per kwh, they can go all renewable.
Pretty expensive bragging rights if you ask me.

How much is smug worth?

Once again the exaggeration. If you factor in the cost to build the nuke ,coal or natural gas it brings the price per KWH up considerably, Hydroelectric, Offshore -On shore wind farms and Geothermal share higher up front costs but virtually no operating cost. You will notice that I left out Solar, while it is a viable source of power generation it suffers from immaturity at this point.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by MarKoBrow

Once again the exaggeration. If you factor in the cost to build the nuke ,coal or natural gas it brings the price per KWH up considerably, Hydroelectric, Offshore -On shore wind farms and Geothermal share higher up front costs but virtually no operating cost. You will notice that I left out Solar, while it is a viable source of power generation it suffers from immaturity at this point.

Sorry, but no. The cost of the nuclear plant IS in the 0.02 per kWh.

And you are quite wrong on the costs of wind farms. The windfarms require a lot of maintainance per kW produced. Geothermal? The temps aren't high enough to really have a good efficiency and the size of the plants are not economical.

With the exception of Geothermal, there are no good alternative energy sources. The only time solar is a good source is when nothing else is available and you would have to run the lines out.

Isreal? It is a desert area with lots of sunshine. How well does solar water heating work in the Northwest USA?

[MotoSook]

Ask the Chinese how benign their hydroelectric dams are. Even those built in the US under the eyes of our holy regulators have negative consequences.

not worth much, until you get the facts right



the costs you quote do not include the subsidies to fossil fuels, esp. oil - the health costs of pollution for one; the costs of keeping a major military presence in the Mid-East; the costs of destroying a major fishery

[MotoSook]

How much to bring electricity from your wind solar and geothermal generation points to the homes? How much to maintain the farms and the lines?

Quote de sammyg2

Electricity from nukes costs about 2 cents per kwh. From natural gas or coal, about 4 cents per kwh. From wind, about 12 cents per kwh. From solar, about 16 cents per kwh. Hydroelectric is actually cheap until you factor in the cost of building the dam.

Sorry, that is reality.



If a country wants to pay 16 cents per kwh, they can go all renewable.

Pretty expensive bragging rights if you ask me.



How much is smug worth?

Once again the exaggeration. If you factor in the cost to build the nuke ,coal or natural gas it brings the price per KWH up considerably, Hydroelectric, Offshore -On shore wind farms and Geothermal share higher up front costs but virtually no operating cost. You will notice that I left out Solar, while it is a viable source of power generation it suffers from immaturity at this point.

[MarKoBrow]

Are you sure it costs 2 cent per KWH to build and operate a nuke, don't get me wrong I am actually a fan of nuclear energy, in fact my very first job outside the service was for Bechtel power and light. As far a maintenance is required are you implying that Coal, Gas and Oil plants are maintenance free? I am kind of lost on the solar heating question, I don't remember mentioning them.

[MarKoBrow]

Originally Posted by Soukus

How much to bring electricity from your wind solar and geothermal generation points to the homes? How much to maintain the farms and the lines?

When new power generation sources are built whether it be fossil fuel or renewable, there is not a new grid being produced for these new plants. The energy is brought to our houses through the existing grid.

[MarKoBrow]

Originally Posted by cstreit

I dunno, what's a iPhone run these days.

from 199.00 to 699.00, I think my iPhone is loosing it's smug factor though.