Medal of Honor Lie No Longer a Crime

[A930Rocket]

Is nothing sacred?

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Medal of Honor Lie No Longer a Crime
Aug 18, 2010 9:09 AM EDT
PASADENA, Calif. - A three-year-old federal law that makes it a crime to falsely claim to have received a medal from the U.S. military is unconstitutional, an appeals court panel in California ruled Tuesday.

The decision involves the case of Xavier Alvarez of Pomona, Calif., a water district board member who said at a public meeting in 2007 that he was a retired Marine who received the Medal of Honor, the nation's highest military decoration.

Alvarez was indicted in 2007. He pleaded guilty on condition that he be allowed to appeal on First Amendment grounds. He was sentenced under the Stolen Valor Act to more than 400 hours of community service at a veterans hospital and fined $5,000.

A panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals sided with him in a 2-1 decision Tuesday, agreeing that the law was a violation of his free-speech rights. The majority said there's no evidence that such lies harm anybody, and there's no compelling reason for the government to ban such lies.

The dissenting justice insisted that the majority refused to follow clear Supreme Court precedent that false statements of fact are not entitled to First Amendment protection.

The act revised and toughened a law that forbids anyone to wear a military medal that wasn't earned. The measure sailed through Congress in late 2006, receiving unanimous approval in the Senate.

Dozens of people have been arrested under the law at a time when veterans coming home from wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are being embraced as heroes. Many of the cases involve men who simply got caught living a lie without profiting from it. Almost all the impostors have been ordered to perform community service.

The U.S. Attorney's Office in Los Angeles said it was deciding whether to appeal Tuesday's ruling.

[cashflyer]

It's no big deal.... I also got a few of those medals when I was serving. I earned one for keeping the commanders car warm on a wintry day. They give them out like good conduct awards these days. (seriously, a little lie about the nations highest award doesn't hurt anyone, right? I mean, surely the veterans who earned them at risk of life or limb don't feel slighted by the lack of honor and respect that the verdict shows.)



edit: removed my reference to the wrong court

[Tobra]

9th circuit, how often do they fail to be overturned, 20% of the time?

So if someone were to kick your teeth if for faking a Medal of Honor, would they be within their freedom of expression rights?

[sc_rufctr]

This is really sad... So it's OK to lie because it doesn't hurt anyone!!!

Excuse the "French" but stuff like this just pisses me off... F%CK ME.... Ahhhh!

I'm ex Aust Army and the thought of someone actually doing this is astonishing. (to say the least)
We have the Victoria Cross awarded for valor and believe me they're aren't many of them given out.
It's almost sacred... And yes. I have heard of ex diggers claiming they were a recipient when they weren't but never met one for real. (thank god)

I just don't get it. What's the point of telling someone a lie so you feel good about yourself? I mean you know it's BS so how does that help you feel good about yourself?

What also concerns me is that this has happened often enough for the politicians to pass the law in the first place.
There are some really sad people in the world.

(Apologies for the rant)

[masraum]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

This is really sad... So it's OK to lie because it doesn't hurt anyone!!!

I understand the ire. I agree that these wankers that portray themselves as war heros should get a little old school justice and get the crap kicked out of them.

That said...

I'm not sure that it should be law that you can't lie. Most folks here seem to prefer less govt control to more, and making telling lies against the law seems to be a bit much.

[myamoto1]

It's OK, I'm a supreme court judge and I'll overturn the verdict (just a little white lie that won't hurt anyone) Wonder how they'd have felt if the guy was claiming to be a judge.

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by masraum

...

That said...

I'm not sure that it should be law that you can't lie. Most folks here seem to prefer less govt control to more, and making telling lies against the law seems to be a bit much.

I understand what you're saying, however if it's a lie that does hurt someone or they get something out of it then it should be against the law.
(a lot of that is covered under fraud laws anyway)

It's just that so many people have no honor...
Oops, There I go again preaching old fashioned values

[jyl]

The Supreme Court reverses (including vacates) court of appeals decisions >70% of the time.

[jyl]

In general, lying is not a crime, and I don't see why lying about receiving a military medal should be legally different than lying about receiving a Nobel Prize, having a degree or credential, one's job title or life accomplishments, etc. Receiving a Medal of Honor is a great thing, is it greater than discovering the polio vaccine or making a huge breakthrough in physics, donating hundreds of millions of dollars to help starving children, saving a family from a burning building, creating many thousands of jobs, etc? Maybe you think so, but reasonable people can differ.

Lying and getting something or harming someone based on that lie can be a crime (fraud, perjury, obstruction, etc). Not clear why it should matter what lie is told.

[mikester]

Originally Posted by jyl

In general, lying is not a crime, and I don't see why lying about receiving a military medal should be legally different than lying about receiving a Nobel Prize, having a degree or credential, one's job title or life accomplishments, etc. Receiving a Medal of Honor is a great thing, is it greater than discovering the polio vaccine or making a huge breakthrough in physics, donating hundreds of millions of dollars to help starving children, saving a family from a burning building, creating many thousands of jobs, etc? Maybe you think so, but reasonable people can differ.

Lying and getting something or harming someone based on that lie can be a crime (fraud, perjury, obstruction, etc). Not clear why it should matter what lie is told.

Isn't it fraud though at some point? I know that if you lie about a credential on a job application you can certainly lose that job...

[McLovin]

Originally Posted by jyl

In general, lying is not a crime, and I don't see why lying about receiving a military medal should be legally different than lying about receiving a Nobel Prize, having a degree or credential, one's job title or life accomplishments, etc. Receiving a Medal of Honor is a great thing, is it greater than discovering the polio vaccine or making a huge breakthrough in physics, donating hundreds of millions of dollars to help starving children, saving a family from a burning building, creating many thousands of jobs, etc? Maybe you think so, but reasonable people can differ.

My guess is the distinction was made because people who invent polio vaccines, donate money, go to college to get a degree, win a Nobel prize, etc. generally aren't putting their lives on the line (and putting their lives in danger, far above the normal call of duty while engaging an enemy combatant) in service of the country to accomplish those things. Some might see a distinction there, I guess others don't.

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by mikester

Isn't it fraud though at some point? I know that if you lie about a credential on a job application you can certainly lose that job...

if lying about a CMH brought someone material gain then I'd say they could be prosecuted for fraud.

[Seahawk]

I have had the sad duty of being materially involved with "medal scammers", both active duty military (think Admiral Borda) and civilians pretending to be involved with the military.

I can only say they don't deserve prosecution, only pity...a sadder, more forlorn lot is hard to imagine.

[jyl]

Originally Posted by mikester

Isn't it fraud though at some point? I know that if you lie about a credential on a job application you can certainly lose that job...

As I said, if you get something, or hurt someone (I mean actually hurt - offending their sensibilites doesn't count), from the lie, then there are consequences. Fraud is one.

But if you're simply a lying attention-seeking braggart who goes around boasting that you [received a Medal of Honor] [cured cancer] [are worth $500MM] [saved 10,000 starving children], you're not a criminal and don't deserve to be. You're just a pathetic liar. (Or an Internet forum poster).

[Pazuzu]

So, if it's a fraud situation (which I believe well all seem to understand the cases of)...then why make a NEW law defining an EXISTING law?

You shouldn't. This law should be nixed, because it expanded nothing, and in fact, it took away basic rights. Lying about something is not illegal. Gaining from a lie is fraud, but this isn't a "fraud" law, they already exist.

[jyl]

Originally Posted by McLovin

My guess is the distinction was made because people who invent polio vaccines, donate money, go to college to get a degree, win a Nobel prize, etc. generally aren't putting their lives on the line (and putting their lives in danger, far above the normal call of duty while engaging an enemy combatant) in service of the country to accomplish those things. Some might see a distinction there, I guess others don't.

Jonas Salk developed the polio vaccine, which ended period polio epidemics that used to kill thousands of children and paralyze many tens of thousands more, in the US alone. Albert Einstein discovered fundamental physical laws that enabled nuclear energy and weapons, space exploration, telecommunications and much more.

Would mankind be worse off without Salk or Einstein's contributions, or without the contribution of a Medal of Honor recipient who showed incredible bravery and self-sacrifice on the battlefied thereby saving several comrades but made no particular difference to the outcome of the battle, campaign, war, or history?

I think mankind should be more grateful for Salk or Einstein. Yet it should a federal crime to impersonate the medal recipient, but not the scientist? Doesn't make sense to me.

I think that when our military and our veterans are involved, a variety of emotions and political calculations get triggered which sometimes get in the way of logical thinking.

Perhaps the Senators who passed the law in 2006 could rather have devoted their attention to, say, the state of medical care for disabled soldiers - you know, something more useful.

[cashflyer]

You don't actually have to "earn" a Nobel Peace Prize these days, so why should you have to "earn" the CMH???

Originally Posted by flatbutt

if lying about a CMH brought someone material gain then I'd say they could be prosecuted for fraud.

But what if it just got them some good old fashioned cratch slapping?
I'd say cratch is a valid reason to lie about the CMH, or any other award.

[Jagshund]

Why are you guys so upset about this? This is great news; now people who were unwilling, unable or just too out of shape to join the service can tell tales of daring-do and courage just the same as veterans- and claim ownership of any medal they wish in order to keep the stories rolling. Parity, people. It's all about leveling the playing field. What kind of world would this be if people actually had to go out and earn honor, respect, degrees, medals, awards, trophies or paychecks? Anyone who's mad about this needs to come back to reality. Sheesh.

[sc_rufctr]

Thanks for that Scott.

[cashflyer]

In the Winter of 1969, an elite force of the US Army was sent on a top secret assignment in Southeast Vietnam. I was a member of that elite force. The mission was considered to be near-suicide. But I killed so many VC that it became an art. I was like Rembrandt; with an M-16 for my brush, the jungle was my canvas, and blood was my paint. It was brutal. I was a one man weapon of mass destruction. Most people will never know that one of the major sticking points in the peace negotiations was me. The NVA even asked the United Nations to make a binding resolution to keep me from destroying them all. I am talking scorched earth. I was seriously fu*king ***** up out there. Eventually, Nixon had to intervene and insist that Abrams bring me back to the states. The Vietnamese were happy, America was happy, I was happy.... everyone was happy except my wife, who expected me to die there. Maybe I should have, but instead of dying I got a medal. A Congressional Medal of Honor. So grab that bottle of scotch, baby, and come on up to my room. Maybe I'll show it to you.