Volt & Leaf Tested in Hell
 

which, obviously, is in Michigan

Chevrolet Volt and Nissan Leaf, Driven Back-to-Back - NYTimes.com

Lol,

The Volt weighs 3800 lbs !?!

My 1978 Datsun B210 was 1900. My 914/6 was under 2000. Why can't we make a car that light anymore?

b/c of current battery technology + safety + comfort/luxo items

Of course, the Volts will be recharged using energy created by coal burning power plants...:rolleyes:

Maybe Jimmy Carter can design a (really thick) sweater to take care of the "safety + comfort/luxo items

I figured Randy posted this just for this Readers comments:

I'd find this more interesting if he actually cited data to support these claims.

We find it amazing that so many people are focused on EV's citing the main reason as they have no emissions, when the significantly greater mining and mineral refining operations to manufacture an EV off-sets the zero emissions factor for the first 15K-25K miles. Then when the vehicle's battery needs to be replaced, the vehicle takes another major emissions hit. Then due to the short life expectancy of the EV - typically 7 years or less - the vehicle is recycled at probably 1/2 or even 1/3rd the life cycle of an advanced diesel vehicle. While the life cycle emissions of an EV do not exceed those of an advanced diesel vehicle running B100, it is closer than most might believe - probably within 50%. EV's are far from a perfect solution.

Since he doesn't, the reader has to find the data himself.

You could start here:
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/es903729a

The Li-ion battery plays a minor role regarding the environmental burdens of E-mobility irrespective of the impact assessment method used.

The main finding of this study is that the impact of a Li-ion battery used in BEVs for transport service is relatively small.

Another explanation for the small impact of the battery on the overall assessment of transport service is the tiny share of the lithium components on the environmental burden for the Li-ion battery. This finding can be explained first of all by the fact that the lithium content accounts for only 0.007 kg per kg Li-ion battery. Thereby, the lithium content of the active material (LiMn2O4) and the lithium in the electrolyte is included. In addition, the processes used to extract lithium from brines are very simple and have a low energy demand.

John, I tried to run that general manf. vs. operation claim down one time. I could trace it to a small college newspaper, which provided no evidence or citation itself.

The small college was a highly conservative religious school.



Paul's claim is no more than a half-truth, and he is well aware of that.

I will say this, the Tesla is one heck of a car. Really fun to drive. One of us here got a bunch of us local guys a test drive and a tour of their dealership. It pulls harder then my tricked 930. fit and finish is great. I would buy one. For the money, I buy a GT3 first.

Enviroment impact...? Well, it was a really fun car.

We had the first Nissan Leaf in Houston in our shop today. We've been testing the a new 480 volt eVgo charging station in our shop for about a month so the new owner stopped by to try the bigger charger. You don't want to use the 480v charger all the time but in a pinch it'll charge to about 80% in about 30 minutes. NRG Energy is planning to put several of the 480V chargers around Houston so you can get a quick charge if you need it.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1296078509.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1296078525.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1296078537.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1296078550.jpg

That family is making the Leaf their PRIMARY commuter car, with a 70 mile round trip.

They're paying $80 a month for unlimited access to the EV grid here in town, which means that it's unlikely they will need to do any more than top off at home in the evening.

So...$80 a month total for commuting costs gets 2 adults to work, one with a 70 mile round trip. Yup, those damned useless electric vehicles...

Tesla = awesome. If there were a way to get into one for a more reasonable price, I would. And yes, I'm intrigued by their sport sedan concept which gets a lot closer to "reasonably priced" than the roadster does...

Only problem I have with the Tesla is this: it is meant to be driven on a racetrack. Now, how many tracks do you of that have 220V or 480V charging stations?!? I can think of .... none.

-Z-man.

Planting trees is just stupid, the surface area on a leaf is nothing compared to that of grass! Compare an acre of O2 production from an acre of grass vs. that of a tree - no comparison!!!

God almighty this country is more F***'d up than a soup sandwich!!!

2nd Gen >> 1st Gen

I'd like to have a bigger version of the Volt system in my Vanagon...

Will wait a bit on a hybrid or electric sports car - of course, I have an automotive anachronism in that slot right now...

At least or buddies in China will love this - most if not all of the Rare Earths needed to build the batterys come from China sweat mines until we start stripping the shyt out of the west again....

Yet another great F***'n idea! God almighty where the heck do they find these people? Doesn't anyone anymore???

After picking up a Hertz Chevy Volt, we found the Big Apple's electric-car infrastructure is still woefully inadequate, and rife with confused parking-lot attendants. Thankfully, the Volt's got a backup engine. With the Nissan Leaf we'd have been screwed.

This past Sunday, Ezra Dyer documented an oil-free weekend with the Nissan Leaf for the New York Times. Only trouble is, he's in Boston, where apparently electric cars are welcomed with fruit baskets and hollowed-out bread loaves filled with clam chowdah. Here, we counted on a big 'ol flask of dinosaur whisky to get us home in time for dinner. This is what happened.

Ray picked the car up at Hertz's rental location on the Upper East Side with just under 30 miles of juice on the Volt's battery (with the heat on), according to the readout. Hertz says driving away in a fully-charged Volt is like getting a free mileage with your rental. Sound like a good deal to us.



I live in Southern Westchester, near the Bronx. Ray thinks that means I've got cornfields in my north 40, but it's only 15 miles away. With Ray having burned that first "half a tank" driving out to the boonies, I get on board and learn that the only nearby charge points outside the city limits are 26.8 miles away in Norwalk, Connecticut and 54 miles away in Stony Brook, Long Island. There are no public charge points in Westchester, probably because everyone thinks we all have garages, and aren't hood rats who need public chargers, which many of us are.

The closest electric-car charging station listed on the printout Hertz provided (from ChargePoint) is at 1775 York Avenue in Manhattan. That's a parking lot below a Marriott hotel. It's exactly 15 miles away, and the Volt says we've got 15 miles of juice. Perfect. Let's roll.

Damn my lead foot. How can I maintain a properly efficient velocity while gypsy cab drivers and container-truck tweakers are constantly in the hunt for electric car blood? Can't do it. Keeping to 55 mph on the Bruckner Expressway is like trying to slow the earth's rotation by playing tetherball in the opposite direction. So now we're down to 6 miles of charge with 7.9 miles to go. The engine kicks on as we're merging on to the FDR Drive, just two exits from our destination. Foiled!

Not bad, though. We pull into the lot, anticipating a bread orgy at nearby Eli Zabar's Vinegar Factory while the Volt's getting its needed charge. But when we pull up to the lot attendant, he's immediately freaked out. Visibly shaken, even. It's as if we'd asked him to step into our UFO for a round of strip pinochle with Ming the Merciless. He paces around nervously, then goes to make a phone call.

As it turns out, the charging stations in NYC are primarily operated by three service providers, two of which — Beam Charging of Syosset and Car Charging of Florida— have paired up with two of the largest NYC parking-lot operators, respectively, Edison and Icon. Building management company The Glenwood Management Corp, the operator of the York Avenue lot where we're parked, operates two local charging stations.

Soon, the lot manager arrives to help us get the car hooked up. Gene Goldstein, vice president of Glenwood Management says we're the lot's first electric-car customers, and thus the confusion. Glenwood's own electricians installed the charger, a wall-mounted unit by Coulomb Technologies, which also operates ChargePoint, a network of charging stations that comprise the entire NYC public-charging infrastructure. Hertz provided a ChargePoint RFID card that can activate any charger in the network, and charge points are combined into radio groups that communicate locally with one another using a 2.4GHz radio protocol. The car thus plugged by SAE J1772 connector at 240V, we thank everyone and head over to Zabar's.



After about an hour we we're back. We unplug and breathlessly boot up the Volt to see how many miles we'd accumulated to go along with the bagles-and-cream-cheese calories we'd racked up at Zabar's. Zero. After an hour we hadn't even scored enough juice to make it across Central Park. Total cost: $22. That's $16 for parking and a $6 charging fee. That and a $12 bagels-and-cream-cheese fee.

Ray drops me off and heads home to his apartment building, where he finds a spot outside. A spot that turns feral at 7:30 am, meaning he's got to vacate it in the morning or else face fines from the NYC parking cartel. He plugs in to a local 120V outlet by way of the Volt's extension cord/adapter and heads off to bed. By the next morning, the charge is only about halfway done, and the traffic cops are circling like special sharks that can suck hundreds of dollars right from your wallet. He speeds off to an Icon-run parking lot at 50th street, where the parking-lot attendant shoos him away. "Come back at 11 am" he says, either referring to when the manager gets in, or when his shift is over so he won't have to deal with the goofy electric sedan.

Andy Kinard, president of Car Charging Group, which services the lot, told me that charge points are designed to be self-service, but that charging-etiquette issues are likely to crop up as people start using the charge points in public places. Training of attendants, he said, is up to the lot management.

Our one-day rental soon over, Ray returns the Volt to the (aptly named) Hertz, happy to have had that "range extender." Perhaps once cranky New Yorkers start gliding into these lots and making a stink, all will right itself in the urban car-charging space. Until then, stay close to home.

I've heard some people still do.

It makes sense to get a holt of all their rare earths before the supply runs out. We do that by recycling them all here after we import them.

Lube, trees have some value.

I once took a brief trip up to the Klamath river basin(upper CA/OR), where the sides of the hills had been clear cut previously.

Because there wasn't a root system to hold the dirt in place and/or keep the water from dumping straight into the river, the hills literally washed away an entire town beneath it.

Rooftops and tricycles were peaking through the groud.

GM's Volt at first seems like a good idea...but it's a few decades late and a few $10,000s short of any realistic sale price.

Japan is going to be offering the low-mpg Prius in several variations for the American comsumer, so the Volt is planned to end up in the scrapyard. By design.

What are you talking about? Low-mpg Prius? Planned scrapyard by design?

Please expand

How long do you think this subsidy for the energy use of the car will last?

This is where I drive my P-car in the summer.

The article was published October 26, 2010.....................I didn't see them, was driving into December (no heat in my car).

The styling of the Volt is sexy. The Leaf leaves something to be desired.;)

What do they use for heat in a total electric car? and AC for that matter? What does that do to your mileage on a -20 morning?

Any testing on the EMF's yet? Any extra tumors growing yet?

Longer than the subsidies for oil.

Electric heat and an electric a/c compressor.

Nissan LEAF Electric Car | Answers | Features | Does it have air conditioning, CD player, GPS, etc?

I've sat in one with the "a/c" running, it's not enjoyable. Nissan tested one going up i-70 here in Colorado. Uphill on a 23% grade with the climate system on netted about 35 miles. So you won't be driving this to go skiing around here.

The electric a/c compressor on the Prius works well, I actually tried to convince one of the 911 racers to go that route. He runs in some series that requires a/c, SCCA maybe, I forget. He chose instead to run the a/c off the half shafts. Good move, but with an all electric vehicle?

Wouldn't work if you were sitting still, unfortunately. Traffic jam = sweating profusely.

I don't know too many people who can shell out the dough for an all electric car that they can't drive from LA to Orange county and back (say 80 miles), let alone drive anywhere else. It means you need to have at least two cars, one for around town, and one if you want to go anywhere else. In LA you get a lot of electricity from Indian power plants on reservations near Four Corners, and they have few air pollution controls on those power plants. BTW, the air pollution blows back towards LA.

Not a subsidy, it's an account with NRG. AFAIK, it's the same as a payment to Reliant or any other. Pay your electric bill, pay your car-electric bill.

Well clearly electrics are not going to replace gas engines any time soon. But I think they will start to make quick inroads in the urban markets with a compact central core. A long range commuter no, but a grocery/drop kids off at school/errands car yes.

the Renault version of the Leaf should sell huge in the Far East mkts - it will be fleet sales to postal services & etc.

That $80 would be about 800-1000 kWh at my electricty rates. Is that enough for regular commuting and driving?

Conceptually the Volt is a neat car. Even at $41k with an $8k tax credit I could see paying $33k for one.

I won't support the UAW however - good car or not, I don't want a single dime of my money going to that institution. They already get enough of my money through taxes and government-authorized bailouts/handouts. I'd love to see them be shut down (yeah like that'll ever happen under this administration especially) because there are a number of neat American made models in recent years I'd otherwise consider and I like the idea of keeping my money here in the USA.

Oh well. Maybe a Leaf. Or a Tesla... :D

If I could find a Tesla for under $50k I'd be all over it.

The $80 covers installation and rental on the home charging station and all the electricity your car can use whether it's charged at your house or at one of the public charging stations.

I believe the Leaf batteries have a 24 kwh capacity so if you use a full charge everyday which is unlikely it would be about 720 kwh's a month.

What does -20 do to the range? Batts dont like low temps.

If there aren't warmers on the battery, the batteries lose 30% of their 'ability' by 32F and 50% by 0F and 80% at -10F. They also need warmers to take charge as quickly at those temps. This was just on 'Good Question' on WCCO news last night.

Nissan says range will diminish 30-40% at colder temperatures. So 100 miles turns into 60-70 which is still fine for an urban commuter.

In the midwest, if you plant grass and don't maintain it, you eventually get trees. If you plant trees to begin with, you end up with trees. It's a conspiracy. The trees are going to take over unless we are diligent in combating them. :rolleyes:

Let's all go back to horse and buggies.... technology is dead... there are no new ideas to be had.

:p