Volt & Leaf Tested in Hell

[RWebb]

which, obviously, is in Michigan

Chevrolet Volt and Nissan Leaf, Driven Back-to-Back - NYTimes.com

[sammyg2]

Lol,

the leaf is a pure electric car, which may give it environmental bragging rights among those who abhor fossil fuels, but there may be a penalty for extended goofing around: You could end up walking. Once the battery is depleted, the leaf becomes yard art until it gets a good, long suckle at an electric outlet.

[red-beard]

The Volt weighs 3800 lbs !?!

My 1978 Datsun B210 was 1900. My 914/6 was under 2000. Why can't we make a car that light anymore?

[RWebb]

b/c of current battery technology + safety + comfort/luxo items

[pwd72s]

Of course, the Volts will be recharged using energy created by coal burning power plants...

[island911]

Originally Posted by RWebb

b/c of current battery technology + safety + comfort/luxo items

Maybe Jimmy Carter can design a (really thick) sweater to take care of the "safety + comfort/luxo items

[island911]

I figured Randy posted this just for this Readers comments:

Yard Art - funny! I am sure Nissan engineers would take exception to this comparison however true.

We find it amazing that so many people are focused on EV's citing the main reason as they have no emissions, when the significantly greater mining and mineral refining operations to manufacture an EV off-sets the zero emissions factor for the first 15K-25K miles. Then when the vehicle's battery needs to be replaced, the vehicle takes another major emissions hit. Then due to the short life expectancy of the EV - typically 7 years or less - the vehicle is recycled at probably 1/2 or even 1/3rd the life cycle of an advanced diesel vehicle. While the life cycle emissions of an EV do not exceed those of an advanced diesel vehicle running B100, it is closer than most might believe - probably within 50%. EV's are far from a perfect solution.

As our complete transportation solution includes the planting of over 10,000,000,000 10'-14' tall trees in the US alone, our efforts also claim these advantages...

Reduction of Other Air Pollutants Via Trees:

* Trees also remove other gaseous pollutants by absorbing them with normal air components through the stomates in the leaf surface.
* Some of the other major air pollutants and their primary sources are:
o Sulfur Dioxide (SO2)- Coal burning for electricity/home heating is responsible for about 60 percent of the sulfur dioxide in the air. Refining and combustion of petroleum products produce 21% of the SO2.
o Ozone (O3) - is a naturally occurring oxidant, existing in the upper atmosphere. O3 may be brought to earth by turbulence during severe storms, and small amounts are formed by lighting. Most O3 - and another oxidant, peroxyacetylnitrate (PAN) - come from the emissions of automobiles and industries, which mix in the air and undergo photochemical reactions in sunlight. High concentrations of O3 and PAN often build up where there are many automobiles.
o Nitrogen oxides - Automotive exhaust is probably the largest producer of NOx. Oxides of nitrogen are also formed by combustion at high temperatures in the presence of two natural components of the air; nitrogen and oxygen.
o Particulates are small (<10 microns) particles emitted in smoke from burning fuel, particular diesel, that enters our lungs and cause respiratory problems.
* There is up to a 60% reduction in street level particulates with trees.
* In one urban park (212 ha.) tree cover was found to remove daily 48lbs. particulates, 9 lbs nitrogen dioxide, 6 lbs sulfur dioxide, and 2 lb carbon monoxide ($136/day value based upon pollution control technology) and 100 lbs of carbon.
* One sugar maple (12" DBH) along a roadway removes in one growing season 60mg cadmium, 140 mg chromium, 820 mg nickel, and 5200 mg lead from the environment.
* A total of 300 trees can counter balance the amount of pollution one person produces in a lifetime.

EV's and Hybrids are not our Future etcgreen.com

[jyl]

I'd find this more interesting if he actually cited data to support these claims.

We find it amazing that so many people are focused on EV's citing the main reason as they have no emissions, when the significantly greater mining and mineral refining operations to manufacture an EV off-sets the zero emissions factor for the first 15K-25K miles. Then when the vehicle's battery needs to be replaced, the vehicle takes another major emissions hit. Then due to the short life expectancy of the EV - typically 7 years or less - the vehicle is recycled at probably 1/2 or even 1/3rd the life cycle of an advanced diesel vehicle. While the life cycle emissions of an EV do not exceed those of an advanced diesel vehicle running B100, it is closer than most might believe - probably within 50%. EV's are far from a perfect solution.

Since he doesn't, the reader has to find the data himself.

You could start here:
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/es903729a

The Li-ion battery plays a minor role regarding the environmental burdens of E-mobility irrespective of the impact assessment method used.

The main finding of this study is that the impact of a Li-ion battery used in BEVs for transport service is relatively small.

Another explanation for the small impact of the battery on the overall assessment of transport service is the tiny share of the lithium components on the environmental burden for the Li-ion battery. This finding can be explained first of all by the fact that the lithium content accounts for only 0.007 kg per kg Li-ion battery. Thereby, the lithium content of the active material (LiMn2O4) and the lithium in the electrolyte is included. In addition, the processes used to extract lithium from brines are very simple and have a low energy demand.

[RWebb]

John, I tried to run that general manf. vs. operation claim down one time. I could trace it to a small college newspaper, which provided no evidence or citation itself.

The small college was a highly conservative religious school.



Paul's claim is no more than a half-truth, and he is well aware of that.

[look 171]

I will say this, the Tesla is one heck of a car. Really fun to drive. One of us here got a bunch of us local guys a test drive and a tour of their dealership. It pulls harder then my tricked 930. fit and finish is great. I would buy one. For the money, I buy a GT3 first.

Enviroment impact...? Well, it was a really fun car.

[David]

We had the first Nissan Leaf in Houston in our shop today. We've been testing the a new 480 volt eVgo charging station in our shop for about a month so the new owner stopped by to try the bigger charger. You don't want to use the 480v charger all the time but in a pinch it'll charge to about 80% in about 30 minutes. NRG Energy is planning to put several of the 480V chargers around Houston so you can get a quick charge if you need it.

[Pazuzu]

Originally Posted by David

We had the first Nissan Leaf in Houston in our shop today. We've been testing the a new 480 volt eVgo charging station in our shop for about a month so the new owner stopped by to try the bigger charger. You don't want to use the 480v charger all the time but in a pinch it'll charge to about 80% in about 30 minutes. NRG Energy is planning to put several of the 480V chargers around Houston so you can get a quick charge if you need it.

That family is making the Leaf their PRIMARY commuter car, with a 70 mile round trip.

They're paying $80 a month for unlimited access to the EV grid here in town, which means that it's unlikely they will need to do any more than top off at home in the evening.

So...$80 a month total for commuting costs gets 2 adults to work, one with a 70 mile round trip. Yup, those damned useless electric vehicles...

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Tesla = awesome. If there were a way to get into one for a more reasonable price, I would. And yes, I'm intrigued by their sport sedan concept which gets a lot closer to "reasonably priced" than the roadster does...

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

Tesla = awesome. If there were a way to get into one for a more reasonable price, I would. And yes, I'm intrigued by their sport sedan concept which gets a lot closer to "reasonably priced" than the roadster does...

Only problem I have with the Tesla is this: it is meant to be driven on a racetrack. Now, how many tracks do you of that have 220V or 480V charging stations?!? I can think of .... none.

-Z-man.

[M.D. Holloway]

Planting trees is just stupid, the surface area on a leaf is nothing compared to that of grass! Compare an acre of O2 production from an acre of grass vs. that of a tree - no comparison!!!

God almighty this country is more F***'d up than a soup sandwich!!!

[RWebb]

2nd Gen >> 1st Gen

I'd like to have a bigger version of the Volt system in my Vanagon...

Will wait a bit on a hybrid or electric sports car - of course, I have an automotive anachronism in that slot right now...

[M.D. Holloway]

At least or buddies in China will love this - most if not all of the Rare Earths needed to build the batterys come from China sweat mines until we start stripping the shyt out of the west again....

Yet another great F***'n idea! God almighty where the heck do they find these people? Doesn't anyone anymore???

[enzo1]

After picking up a Hertz Chevy Volt, we found the Big Apple's electric-car infrastructure is still woefully inadequate, and rife with confused parking-lot attendants. Thankfully, the Volt's got a backup engine. With the Nissan Leaf we'd have been screwed.

This past Sunday, Ezra Dyer documented an oil-free weekend with the Nissan Leaf for the New York Times. Only trouble is, he's in Boston, where apparently electric cars are welcomed with fruit baskets and hollowed-out bread loaves filled with clam chowdah. Here, we counted on a big 'ol flask of dinosaur whisky to get us home in time for dinner. This is what happened.

Ray picked the car up at Hertz's rental location on the Upper East Side with just under 30 miles of juice on the Volt's battery (with the heat on), according to the readout. Hertz says driving away in a fully-charged Volt is like getting a free mileage with your rental. Sound like a good deal to us.



I live in Southern Westchester, near the Bronx. Ray thinks that means I've got cornfields in my north 40, but it's only 15 miles away. With Ray having burned that first "half a tank" driving out to the boonies, I get on board and learn that the only nearby charge points outside the city limits are 26.8 miles away in Norwalk, Connecticut and 54 miles away in Stony Brook, Long Island. There are no public charge points in Westchester, probably because everyone thinks we all have garages, and aren't hood rats who need public chargers, which many of us are.

The closest electric-car charging station listed on the printout Hertz provided (from ChargePoint) is at 1775 York Avenue in Manhattan. That's a parking lot below a Marriott hotel. It's exactly 15 miles away, and the Volt says we've got 15 miles of juice. Perfect. Let's roll.

Damn my lead foot. How can I maintain a properly efficient velocity while gypsy cab drivers and container-truck tweakers are constantly in the hunt for electric car blood? Can't do it. Keeping to 55 mph on the Bruckner Expressway is like trying to slow the earth's rotation by playing tetherball in the opposite direction. So now we're down to 6 miles of charge with 7.9 miles to go. The engine kicks on as we're merging on to the FDR Drive, just two exits from our destination. Foiled!

Not bad, though. We pull into the lot, anticipating a bread orgy at nearby Eli Zabar's Vinegar Factory while the Volt's getting its needed charge. But when we pull up to the lot attendant, he's immediately freaked out. Visibly shaken, even. It's as if we'd asked him to step into our UFO for a round of strip pinochle with Ming the Merciless. He paces around nervously, then goes to make a phone call.

As it turns out, the charging stations in NYC are primarily operated by three service providers, two of which — Beam Charging of Syosset and Car Charging of Florida— have paired up with two of the largest NYC parking-lot operators, respectively, Edison and Icon. Building management company The Glenwood Management Corp, the operator of the York Avenue lot where we're parked, operates two local charging stations.

Soon, the lot manager arrives to help us get the car hooked up. Gene Goldstein, vice president of Glenwood Management says we're the lot's first electric-car customers, and thus the confusion. Glenwood's own electricians installed the charger, a wall-mounted unit by Coulomb Technologies, which also operates ChargePoint, a network of charging stations that comprise the entire NYC public-charging infrastructure. Hertz provided a ChargePoint RFID card that can activate any charger in the network, and charge points are combined into radio groups that communicate locally with one another using a 2.4GHz radio protocol. The car thus plugged by SAE J1772 connector at 240V, we thank everyone and head over to Zabar's.



After about an hour we we're back. We unplug and breathlessly boot up the Volt to see how many miles we'd accumulated to go along with the bagles-and-cream-cheese calories we'd racked up at Zabar's. Zero. After an hour we hadn't even scored enough juice to make it across Central Park. Total cost: $22. That's $16 for parking and a $6 charging fee. That and a $12 bagels-and-cream-cheese fee.

Ray drops me off and heads home to his apartment building, where he finds a spot outside. A spot that turns feral at 7:30 am, meaning he's got to vacate it in the morning or else face fines from the NYC parking cartel. He plugs in to a local 120V outlet by way of the Volt's extension cord/adapter and heads off to bed. By the next morning, the charge is only about halfway done, and the traffic cops are circling like special sharks that can suck hundreds of dollars right from your wallet. He speeds off to an Icon-run parking lot at 50th street, where the parking-lot attendant shoos him away. "Come back at 11 am" he says, either referring to when the manager gets in, or when his shift is over so he won't have to deal with the goofy electric sedan.

Andy Kinard, president of Car Charging Group, which services the lot, told me that charge points are designed to be self-service, but that charging-etiquette issues are likely to crop up as people start using the charge points in public places. Training of attendants, he said, is up to the lot management.

Our one-day rental soon over, Ray returns the Volt to the (aptly named) Hertz, happy to have had that "range extender." Perhaps once cranky New Yorkers start gliding into these lots and making a stink, all will right itself in the urban car-charging space. Until then, stay close to home.

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by LubeMaster77

Doesn't anyone anymore???

I've heard some people still do.

It makes sense to get a holt of all their rare earths before the supply runs out. We do that by recycling them all here after we import them.

[john70t]

Lube, trees have some value.

I once took a brief trip up to the Klamath river basin(upper CA/OR), where the sides of the hills had been clear cut previously.

Because there wasn't a root system to hold the dirt in place and/or keep the water from dumping straight into the river, the hills literally washed away an entire town beneath it.

Rooftops and tricycles were peaking through the groud.