CORBONS (non french) REAL BEAR ADVICE!

[ODDJOB UNO]

just got off phone w/ LYNN @ CORBON AMMO re: DEFENSIVE BEAR ROUNDS...........


and here's what he said after twisting his ear for quite some time TODAY. not some internet B.S.


1) you have (2) types of bear attacks. (1) YOU ARE ATTACKING THE BEAR and/or THE BEAR IS ATTACKING YOU! for info on YOU attacking the bear, go do some reading as i have and buy a .338 win mag, or a 45/70 or bigger and buy the correct OFFENSIVE RDs.


2) for defensive bear rounds in event of a sudden charge, 1st and foremost, the likelihood of YOU or ME, unstrapping a pistol, pulling the pistol, correctly aiming pistol, and firing pistol if it is a .454,.460,.480,.500 and shooting the bear and it dying, more than once, is about NIL! nada, nicht,ZIP. in other words the aforementioned spoons are TWO HANDED OFFENSIVE HUNTING SPOONS. so the damn bear grabs your left arm and is biting the hell out of you standing or on your back, and you get to grab this mega spoon and shoot to kill with (1) hand.


hmmmm thats sounds about as much fun as..................being eaten by a bear. now lynns advice was that since the recoil of these is ferocious on a good day under controlled 2 handed shooting.............its more than likely if not FER SURE, yer not gonna get a killing shot. and the BEST PART..............yer NOT GONNA GET A FOLLOW UP HAIL MARY SHOT EITHER as more than LIKELY the spoon will be on the trail behind you DUE TO MASSIVE RECOIL! and thats when, yer like so FEEKED its beyond comprehension.


oh boy we are having FUN NOW!


now why the hell is this? well because when people go into really big bear country what do they do with these big bores???? thats right they buy the biggest baddest most MONGO VAPORIZER ROUND ON THE PLANET w/the ensuent insane recoil. and after (1) 1/2 azzed worthless glancing blow shot if they hit him, they have now really pissed off mr bear or mrs bear or even baby bear. and its gonna GET UGLY FAST!



soooo...................with that yummy thought in mind heres what LYNN @CORBON uses. and if ANYONE has shot a HELL OF ALOT OF ROUNDS its lynn cuz he works there. and corbon has been around 27years.


a freeking 4" smith or ruger .44 mag. why 4"? because its easy to traverse and light. no massive recoil, you can single handed shoot the damn thing while yer arm is being GNAWED TO THE BONE and empty the sucker where it really hurts. ie. his eyes, his nose, his ears, his shoulder, his mouth and his nutz for good measure also!


also he stated that single actions are NOT the hot ticket due to obvious reasons as you will be fighting for YOUR LIFE shooting double action.


heres what corbon offers for .44 mags:

1) 320 gr(bullet) hardcast penetrator about 79.99 a box

2) 300 gr(bullet) flatpoint(meplat) penetrator about 50.91 a box


now obviously i was foaming at the mouth for a french bear to walk thru my hanger here so i could BLAST HIM! but that aint happening today. but i continued asking him about other calibers i have for offensive or defensive rounds for mr/mrs URSUS HORRIBLIS


45/70- to be shot ONLY in MODERN SPOONS- 350 BONDED CORE bullets

.338 win mag-250gr DPX hunter


so there ya have it. lynn stated it is very common for hollowpoints from any mfg. to mat up with fur and never exit the animal. what this does, is NOT ALLOW ANY BLOOD LOSS and as we all know..................we want a freeking BLOOD BATH/BLOOD FIESTA if some damn bear is eating me. and we want him to bleed out for tracking purposes also. but the bottomline is you want them to bleed like hell which disallows O2(in blood) from getting to brain and central nervous system so the prick cant continue his attack and make YOU or ME into lil trail bear poo-poo twinkies!



and thats another " how im gonna stay alive while the bear eats YOU" kind of story!

[greglepore]

Yeah, but how quickly will you be armed if Yogi breaks into your casa...

[ODDJOB UNO]

well now that ya mention it.........................


black bears have been found(by surprise) no more than 4-5 miles as the crow flys from where i sit. usually thats during drought conditions where they come down from higher elevations despite hotter temps and go after the prickly pear berries.


now for here since the last ursus horriblis was taken on the blue river bordering new messiko(yes they were native) in 1920, i dont have to worry too much about uncle grizzily.



butt where we fish and varmint hunt on the rez and over in the gila, we not only have to worry, but its a dead nutz gurrantee we are going to have to deal with THEM, usually sooner or later. like right off the porch. and IT AINT FUN!


and it aint the movies.



and i aint the " bear whisperer".


and yes, me and wifey have come upon mommy bear and the (2) lil baby bears and it aint FUN EITHER!



so my choices:


i give up the great outdoors, and sit in front of the puter all day and the TV and eat bon bons and hand out stooo-pid advice for free and get real FAT,


or...........................



i enjoy the outdoors come rain snow shine and deal with them in a smarter manner. and thinking your gonna stop a black bear attack, let alone a brown bear attack with hollowpoints or FMJ or JSP's, well lets just say its a damn good way to become a bear twinkie poo-poo in short order.



and i dont wanna be a "bear twinkie poo-poo."

[greglepore]

Or u could just fk with the idiot "lawyer" next door.

[ODDJOB UNO]

Originally Posted by greglepore

Or u could just fk with the idiot "lawyer" next door.

ya liked that lil story didnt ya???



well as a lil mini "as seen on TV" drama update:

that dumazz never knew what hit him with the initial R.O. (still in place) and the county zoning dept.



and guess what??? the county zoning dept has him by his widdle balls:


1) vehicles must be licd and registered, which means smogged also to store them there.

2) (2) storage trailers must be permitted

3) electrical to both trailers must be permitted

4) flood plain must be changed

5) initial site plan he submitted REFUSED and sent back.

6) has to pay for new survey-entire property

7) issues with existing wall, may have to be torn down(HIS WALL)

8) electrical box brought to code

9) cant run a biz out of there like he thought

10) and (4) neighbors watching every move they make


and ya know what else??????????its been DAMN QUIET OVER THERE SINCE THE SHERIFFS(2) sat outside his gate for about an hour a while back!




and thats just a lil tidbit of what happens when ya feek with a over educated native.

[Jagshund]

Originally Posted by ODDJOB UNO

Thinking you're gonna stop a black or brown bear attack with hollowpoints or FMJ or JSP's is a damn good way to become a bear twinkie poo-poo in short order and i dont wanna be a "bear twinkie poo-poo."

Wonder if bleed-out would be increased if you led the bear on a 100 yard sprint before turning and popping 'im as opposed to simply standing ground and emptying a mag.

[ODDJOB UNO]

actually running from a bear IS THE WORST THING you can do, either stand your ground,yelling(real loud-duh) and shoot as per the aforementioned "how to shoot a bear" 360 degree diagram i cannot link to. or "play dead" and pray he splits.


how fast they are, and how quiet they are is scary. kind of like NOT hearing a shark scuba diving and then..............THERE HE IS! YIKES!


this crap about kinder gentler bear spray and bells is for the "death wishers".


i have actually spent quite a bit of my off time reading about bear encounters after our incidents and how i will handle it next time.



kind of like rattlesnakes here. yeah yeah ya just walk around them. but what about the ones that just "APPEAR" in yer face/space???? hmmmm kind of the time a HP,JSP,FMJ is kind of worthless unless yer damn good. and snakeshot is your friend.



so with bears it just seems plain damn simple to carry the correct rounds for the spoon yer carrying.


we have been thru the SOP for 12 ga snot-spoons. and here it is again.

1st round #6 birdshot to blind them, and to stall their attack.

2nd rd OO BUCK

3rd rd 3" breneke slug

4th OO BUCK

5th slug

6th etc however many rds in tube ya got.


but one article i read is how many ranger dangers(USFS) are deciding NOT to carry 12 snotguns and opting for...........1895 MARLIN 45/70 GUIDE GUNS!


hmmmm i wonder why????? maybe they know something we all dont????



all i can say is for my next journey into the vast wastelands, i'll spring the bucks for some corbons and some garretts and shoot a few for giggles and groupings before i go and see what groups best out of my spoons.



its not a rehearsal dealing w/these "silly bears". and as i read "bear attacks of the last century", you will be surprised at how small some of the black bears were. and as we all know, theres bears in 49 states................theres probably a bear in yer garbage RIGHT NOW!



and heres another lil tidbit.................unless its damn cold out.............take that hibernation thing and SHOVE IT! they can be cruising around year around. or just leave their lil dens to take a #3 and go back dreaming about gold-di-locks.


knowledge is power and nature doesnt suffer FOOLS!

[Jeff Higgins]

I'll have to take exception with LYNN @CORBON's disparaging remarks about my beloved single actions. For a guy who knows how to use them, they are simply not a disadvantage in the least. As long as the gun is still in my hand, I can cock that hammer.

And $50 to $80 a box for cast bullet loads? I can put up exactly the same loads, with exactly the same bullets at exactly the same velocities (or better) for ten bucks a box or less. There is nothing special about Cor-bon's heavy cast bullet loads, nor Garret's for that matter. They are simply proper cast bullet loads that anyone can duplicate (or improve upon) at home, in their spare time. I've been doing it for 30 years. They are cheap, they are accurate, they exceed the performance of any jacketed bullet available, by any measure, from any revolver. I've sung the praises of cast bullets for an awfully long time.

I've shot a fair amount of game with cast bullets from revolvers and rifles in the last 30 years. I've developed some strong opinions about them from my own first hand experiences. Funny, too, that my "discoveries" pretty much exactly match those of my "mentors" - some I actually had the privilege to meet, some not, some passing on before my time. Guys like Keith, Skelton, Jordan, Seyfreid, Wilson, Pearce, Scovill, and many, many others with vastly more experience than myself. Everything I have "learned" for myself simply reaffirmed these men's work.

I simply have no use for any of these modern-day "hand cannons". Neither does anyone else, they just don't realize it. I've driven a 260 grain hard cast lead bullet through both shoulders of a mature mulie buck, from a .45 Colt, driven by black powder at a stately 850 fps. Clear though, breaking both shoulders. I've driven a 300 grain bullet from a .44 mag lengthwise through a caribou bull, after shattering his brisket, that started out at a thundering 1150 fps. It exited a ham right next to his butt hole. That's over six feet of penetration.

In 30 years of shooting deer, black bear, pronghorns, caribou, and elk with cast bullets, I have managed to recover exactly one from the dozens fired. Every other one fired exited. My "standard" .44 mag or .45 Colt hunting loads push a 300 grain bullet to about 1150 fps, or a 250 grain to 1200 fps in the .44 mag (the original Keith bullet and load) or about 900 in the .45 Colt. And they all exit, from any angle, all the time, regardless of breaking heavy bones or not. Why on Earth would anyone need more? To put a deeper hole in the ground behind them?

There is way, way too much hype in today's shooting world. Way too many snake oil salesmen. The very best handgun loads were developed long before I was born. Anyone who puts the time in, out in the field with them, will soon discover that. Just like I did. What these modern day hucksters are selling today is nothing but advertising b.s. wrapped around simple, effective, and very old technology. It still works, and it always will, but there is simply no way in hell I'll ever pay $80 a box for the same stuff that bullet casting handloaders have been putting together at home since long before my time. I'll just heat up a mold and go to work...

[Jim Bremner]

My parents took me up to Banff Canada when I was15.

We drove in the camper all the way up there. I was up above the cab in the top bed as they were driving around a camp ground looking for our camp site.

Dad stopped the camper next to a BIG 'ol tree that the bears used as a scratching post. The nail marks where higher than the window that I was looking out of!

[ODDJOB UNO]

well until santa comes with our reloader, im gonna have to buy 'em.


now lynn did say this, its imperative that the bullet exits the animal. if the bullet wads up with hair, bone,etc, the wound channel is less and there is less if not any blood loss.


science dictates the heavier the bullet, the slower the velocity. but he said there is a point where going too heavy is a bad thing.


yes many of these rounds were developed wayy before most of us. one of the good laughs i read was "why" the .357 mag round was developed back in the 1930's. why? to stop gangsters cars! what a HOOT! they needed a round that could be fired from a hand spoon and penetrate a vehicles engine block.


and as some of us know.............the 135 year old or so 45/70 was originally called by its mil-spec nomenclature........... .45/70/405. 405 being the bullet weight.


so yes with a meplat design bullet, you are creating the most devastating round possible to increase wound channal size and expedite massive blood loss to facilitate less O2(oxygen/blood) to the central nervous system and cause a complete massive shutdown of the entire system. or in laymens terms............."feek 'em up good".


now as i mentioned my huntin peudner had a stroke awhile back. as things got better, he started reloading again. but, he short powdered or no powdered a few rounds and had some squibs. i cant rely on that. so for now i will purchase until santa brings us a reloader, and to start 45/70 dies. i already have .308, and .338 win mag. all i need is .357,.44, .30 carbine dies and the rest i will buy boxed bulk. i'll be set with rounds, and play "mad doctor" late at night and crank them out by the bushel. we reloaded alot when i was younger shootin .357's. had a hoot of a time with recipes. since getting older we whipped up some damn nice .308's and .338 win mags also.


yes relaoding IS the only way to go. all the recipes are out there already and free.



but for a bad bad story about reloading(aside from squibs) i have heard twice now from (2) people, they sprayed WD-40(THE HORROR) on their shells after priming, came back later, finished off reloading. grabbed the rounds when hunting season started, and you guessed it..................CLICK-NO BANG! (1) ona bull elk and (1) on a nice muley deer.


so moral is.....................THROW THAT WD-40 AS FAR AWAY AS YA CAN FROM SPOONS and RELOADING EQUIPMENT!

[ODDJOB UNO]

well in my never ending quest for info............................


READ THE GARRETT CARTRIDGES.com "TESTIMONIALS" re: a particular nasty azz bear who was already shot and (4) guys go into the bush after him. (3) with rifles and the last with a 2.5" .44 mag.....................



you guessed it the damn bear doubled back around and tried(emphasis) to DRY-GULCH HIM! FROM BEHIND!(now thats just pure dastardly evil)



charged to within 15 feet, guy got (1) round off that went thru lungs and bear went down and he had enough time to empty cylinders to put him DOWN FOR GOOD!



then take a look at the pictures. man i'm cleaning my pants out after just reading them.

[Jeff Higgins]

Yup, the whole idea behind cast bullets is that they penetrate above all else, leaving an exit wound. Nose and shoulder shape are critical, with a flat nose and sharp edges being critical. This design removes material, like a paper punch, rather than pushing it aside like poking a pencil through a sheet of paper. The pencil hole closes back up. In an animal, that allows the bleeding to stop. So, yes - cutting a hole that goes all the way through is what makes a proper cast bullet effective.

Keith, Croft, and others had a big hand in the development of the .357 mag. They had been shooting heavy .38 Special loads in the N-framed Smith & Wesson .38/44 Outdoorsman for years. It was a well proven game load by the time S&W lengthened the chamber to create the .357 Magnum. Keith, Croft, and co. simply wanted heavy factory loads for their .38/44's, but S&W saw producing them as a safety issue (which it certainly was). The same approach led to the .44 mag some 25 years later, by the way. Keith simply wanted his heavy load for the .44 Special to be factory loaded. S&W (quite rightly so) had concerns about them getting into early, weak guns. So they lengthened the chamber, and the case, so the new cases wouldn't fit in the old guns.

Anyway, one of their executives (I forget who offhand) when on a globe-trotting publicity trip with one of the first Registered Magnums in the late '30's, shooting all manner of big game with it, up to at least moose, from what I recall. It was sold initially as a hunting round, not so much as a law enforcement round.

The latter was the province of the also new .38 Super. Chambered in the 1911, this round was actually the answer to the call from law enforcement for something that could penetrate car bodies. It's somewhat pointy round nose FMJ bullet was better suited to that duty than the lead bullet .357 mag loads available at the time.

Interestingly, Lyman still catalogs at least one mold intended for the .38/44. The crimp groove is located so that the final overal loaded length, when loaded in .38 Special cases, is just as long as a .357 mag round. As a result, it has the same powder capacity, merely putting more bullet out in front of the case. Lots of guys make the mistake of buying this mold for use in the .357 mag, and find out they can't crimp in the crimp groove because the round winds up too long to fit in the cylinder. The right fix is to simply use .38 Special cases, but most guys cheese out on this and crimp their .357 cases over the front driving band.

Lots of interesting history from those days. Unfortunately, as it gets repeated down through the generations, many of the facts have gotten a little muddled. One gunwriter simply reads what the last gunwriter wrote about it and takes it as the gospel truth. It's like the old "tell a secret" game, where by the time the original makes it once around the room, the originator cannot recognize it as what they had originally said. I've come to simply ignore most of today's gun press. Most of those wankers shoot better with a typewriter than a gun, to paraphrase Keith. I have a huge library of old firearms literature dating back to the early 19th century, written by the guys who were "out there, doing that". Nothing beats going back to the source. And finding out, for yourself, just how right they were.

[ODDJOB UNO]

well when santa delivers a dillon 650 reloader, we are going at this full steam.


45/70 's aint cheap by the box nor cheap by the case.


and then you add in the "boutique" rounds i mentioned it takes a reasonable sport and sends it into the realm of "porsche" and its goofy spendiness.


we are gonna get some corbons, just for giggles, and the warm fuzzy feeling of a "boxed" round for any nasty critters until we get up to speed with a good solid load that feeds reliably out of a levers mag tube.


as mentioned, hearing new reloaders mistakes come hunting day, is enough for me, to sit back, and do a hell of alot of testing before i put my azz on the line with a 1/2 azzed reload thats untested.


since all i feed my .338 win mag is 250gr barnes or molys, and my multiple .308s 168gr BTHP sierras, that recipe has been proven over the years and thats not a worry.


here in the SW, every hunt, every weekend, can be different hunting conditions. one day your canyon hunting, the next down in the thick azz'd juniper,oak, buck brush, and the next day on the dezert flats, to thick aspens or pines.

so if i got drawn in unit 10 by williams south of the grande canon, we have pines,to flats,to junipers in a matter of a few miles.


these juniper "islands" are literally bagdad "door to door" searches, throw yer scope away. hence my marlin 1895. and whats fun always is coming upon a buried elk/deer kill and looking at "putty tat" tracks. not a hell of alot of difference than a bear jumping out at you. and how quick you may have to fire from the hip.


on the other side of the coin in the same unit, you can be in the pines in cover with a longggg downhill shot to a meadow, hence the .338 win mag or .308.


or shooting canyon rim to canyon rim hence the long range aspect.


so since i just picked up my marlin 1895GS after drooling over the present i got my son a couple of years ago...........marlin 1895 XLR 45/70 24" barrel, 45/70 will be the first set of dies we set up for.


already have designated bench space in out building, refrigerator to store powder, fire extinguishers etc. not attached to any other structure. this will be the "mad doktors" of reloadings home away from home.


now its not like we are gonna subject ourselves to all day shooting sessions off the bench with 45/70's. hell we did that stoopid stunt getting the 1895XLR's leupold dialed in with various mfg's bullets and settled on the 325gr hornaday leverevolutions. which hornaday sells alone. ie you can buy these and experiment with your own powders/primers.


there isnt much difference in recoil btwn a .375 h&h and a 45/70. you just have to make damn sure the buttstock is firmly planted in your shoulder each time.


when hunting, you dont notice them much. off the bench...........well ya just gotta be smarter than the average bear.


i feel wayyyyy more betterererer-er with a 45/70 anyday over a 30/30. yeah i know about dangerous game being killed in stress situations with all sorts of non-suited calibers, but homey dont play dat way. im gonna stack the cards in my favor each and every time.


just got done reading about this guy in alaska who was a hunting/fishing fool. he knew his poo, very educated and aware of his surroundings and local bear population. one day he told wifey he was going hunting at so and so spot where he had been many times before. he didnt show back up. wifey went looking w.friend. then called ranger dangers, they found him on a trail with his head caved in, a backpacker stove w/top ramen on it, and (1) round of .280 expended,shell on ground, and (1) round in pipe. cops found his bootprints with mr. grizzilies tracks over his. they surmised mr. bear picked up scent in thick brush, and started stalking this guy. bear came around corner, surprised guy, he got off one shot, and bear grabbed him by head and killed him. they never found the bear, so they dont know if he was even hit by the .280 round.



whats the moral to this story?????



1) NOT ENOUGH GUN

2) NOT ENOUGH TIME

3) NO PISTOL BACKUP

4) WENT BY HIMSELF




homey aint gonna be bear poo nor mtn kitty poo!




you can learn a hell of alot from these articles and police/ranger/coroner reports.

[TechnoViking]

I know a guy who lives in Brekenridge that killed a bear in his kitchen with a .22. Just sayin'.

[vash]

you guys are much better internet searchers than myself..but there is a video. guys floating down a river in a boat..i think they are fly fishing. filming the trip. out of nowhere a grizzly comes out of a bush and starts running, full sprint at them....CHARGE! the guide must be a tombstone decendent because he quick draws his pistol and fires..he misses, but the report scares the bear into a retreat.

awesome video..i think sports afield, the magazine filmed it.

[sammyg2]

Mr. Ranger isn't going to like that yogi.

[GH85Carrera]

Bears ain't that hard to handle!

[Jeff Higgins]

When you do get around to reloading the .45-70, here is my all time favorite go-to load:

RCBS .45-400 GC bullet, a 400 grain gas check design specifically designed for feeding in Marlin 1895's, cast from straight wheel weights. Lubed with SPG. Seated over 50 grains of H322 and lit by a standard CCI 200 large rifle primer. This load just touches 1900 fps from my standard (22" barreled) 1895. It shoots as close to honest minute of angle as any heavy .45-70 load has any right to do. It shoots through any animal in North America, from any angle at which you care to hit it. Zeroed at 150 yards, the Marlin is an honest 200 yard hunting rifle.

Recoil is pretty darn stout, even from my full size Marlin. Guide Guns are going to be worse. The load can actually increase by up to five grains, and darn near reach 2100 fps, but recoil is darn near unmanagable and accuracy starts to suffer. At that level, felt recoil exceeds my Ruger #1 in .458 mag. At 50 grains and 1900 fps, it's a bit more stout than my #1 or Model 70 in .375 H&H, but not bad. Make no mistake, though, a heavily loaded .45-70 lever gun will flat back you out from under your hat.

If you don't want to cast bullets, the Remington is the toughest 400 grain bullet available, until you get into the really spendy Woodleighs, or some of the Barns monolithic stuff. The 400 grain Speer is meant for standard velocity .45-70 loads, and will come apart if you drive it to full throttle in the Marlins. The Speer 350 grain, meant for lighter recoil elk and moose and bear loads in the .458 mag, is the the one to use in their lineup. You can spit them out at over 2,000 fps with wonderfull accuracy, albeit a good deal of recoil.

[vash]

i will go on a Grizzly bow hunt. i have agreed. i have zero interest in sticking a big bear with a pointed stick..none what-so-ever..but my good friend wants to badly. i agreed to be his backup. he will pay some of my way. i get to see some beautiful country, maybe arrow a caribou. i think a benelli shotgun filled with slugs or buckshot would work. even my automatic 30.06 fitted with super heavy bullets, open sights would work.

my brother has met some guys..some of those "blackhawk down", special ops guys. they run camps for hunters in alaska. they will let us bowhunt moose or caribou. we will be armed to the gills. they have had zero issues with bears. but i am going in with the same shotgun or rifle.

[Jeff Higgins]

Alaska requires that out of state hunters hire a licensed guide for grizzly, moose, and sheep. The dirty little secret about hunting up there with pointy sticks is that said licensed guides kill most of that sort of game with their rifles. If your buddy arrows a bear, it's quite likely his guide will shoot it if it shows the slightest inclination of running off into the pucker brush. You will not be allowed to be his "backup". The guide will assume that duty. He has way, way too much to lose if the bear gets to your buddy.

I'm sorry, I don't want to sound too harsh and judgemental, but bowhunting such game in this day and age amounts to no more than a stunt. Some get away with it, and can claim in all truthfulness that they actually killed the bear. Most can't. That's the hard reality of it. The client flings an arrow through it, the guide shoots it to keep things civil, and then tells the client "it was a killing shot anyway, that was just insurance" (and it very well may have been) to make the client feel better about the whole deal.