Carfax?

[gtc]

So the closed thread got me thinking...

Since Carfax doesn't give you unlimited access anymore (now it's $45 for 5 reports) is it still immoral to share reports? Suppose someone went car shopping but only used three of their five reports? The other two have already been paid for, and would just be going to waste, so why not let someone else use them?

[Rot 911]

Excellent point. You are now paying for 5. You should be able to do whatever you want with them.

[Zeke]

You should, but if it's in the purchase agreement that the unused reports are not transferable, then Pelican can't participate in something illegal as trivial as it seems.

[gtc]

Sounds to me like the only thing prohibited is using a carfax for a commercial purpose.

I agree to pay a one-time charge of $44.99 (USD) plus applicable sales tax in the following states: CT, DC, HI, NJ, NM, NY, SC, SD, TX, WA and WV, according to my card issuer agreement. This 5 CARFAX Reports Plan is valid for 60 days from the date of purchase, and is intended for my personal use only. Commercial use, resale and redistribution of CARFAX Reports is strictly prohibited. "Commercial Use" is defined as use by persons engaged in the business of researching, buying and/or selling of automobiles, the resale or redistribution of Reports, or any other business purpose as determined by CARFAX, Inc.
ANY COMMERCIAL USE OF CARFAX VEHICLE HISTORY REPORTS IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED AND ANY SUSPECTED COMMERCIAL USE WILL LEAD TO THE SUSPENSION OF YOUR ACCOUNT, UNTIL YOU PROVIDE SUFFICIENT PROOF THAT YOUR USE IS PURELY PERSONAL. FAILURE TO DO SO PRIOR TO THE EXPIRATION OF YOUR ACCOUNT WILL RESULT IN THE DEACTIVATION OF YOUR ACCOUNT, WITHOUT REFUND, AND MAY RESULT IN LEGAL ACTION. PROOF OF PERSONAL USE MAY INCLUDE: DETAILING HOW YOU ARE USING THE CARFAX ACCOUNT AND SPECIFIC EXAMPLES OF THE SITES OR LOCATIONS WHERE YOU ARE FINDING THE VEHICLES THAT ARE BEING OFFERED FOR SALE. THE DETERMINATION OF PERSONAL USE IS AT THE SOLE DISCRETION OF CARFAX, INC. WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO IMPOSE, AND YOU AGREE TO PAY TO CARFAX, INC., AN ADDITIONAL CHARGE OF $29.99 FOR EACH CARFAX VEHICLE HISTORY REPORT THAT CARFAX, INC. DEEMS WAS ACCESSED FOR COMMERCIAL PURPOSES.
Systematic retrieval of CARFAX Reports to create or compile, directly or indirectly, in whole or in part, a collection, compilation, database or directory without the express written permission of CARFAX is strictly prohibited.
CARFAX REPORTS ARE PROVIDED ON AN "AS IS" BASIS WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, WARRANTIES OF TITLE OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OTHER THAN THOSE WARRANTIES WHICH ARE IMPLIED BY AND INCAPABLE OF EXCLUSION, RESTRICTION OR MODIFICATION UNDER APPLICABLE LAW.
IN NO EVENT WILL CARFAX, OR ANY PERSON OR ENTITY INVOLVED IN CREATING, PRODUCING, OR DISTRIBUTING THE CARFAX REPORTS, BE LIABLE IN CONTRACT, IN TORT (INCLUDING FOR ITS OWN NEGLIGENCE) OR UNDER ANY OTHER LEGAL THEORY (INCLUDING STRICT LIABILITY) FOR ANY DAMAGES, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, PUNITIVE, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR SIMILAR DAMAGES, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, LOST PROFITS OR REVENUES, LOSS OF USE, OR SIMILAR ECONOMIC LOSS, ARISING OUT OF THE USE OF CARFAX REPORTS. IN NO EVENT SHALL CARFAX'S TOTAL LIABILITY TO YOU FOR ALL DAMAGES, LOSSES, AND CAUSES OF ACTION WHETHER IN CONTRACT, TORT (INCLUDING ITS OWN NEGLIGENCE) OR UNDER ANY OTHER LEGAL THEORY (INCLUDING STRICT LIABILITY) EXCEED THE AMOUNT PAID BY YOU, IF ANY, FOR OBTAINING ANY REPORTS OR OTHER INFORMATION FROM CARFAX - Vehicle History Reports and VIN number check.
You agree to defend, indemnify, and hold harmless CARFAX and its affiliates and their respective directors, officers, employees, and agents from and against any and all claims, actions, demands, damages, costs, liabilities, losses, and expenses (including reasonable attorneys' fees) arising out of your use of the CARFAX Reports.
This Customer Agreement shall be construed in accordance with the laws of the Commonwealth of Virginia, without regard to its conflict of laws rules, including but not limited to, the Uniform Computer Information Transactions Act ("UCITA"). You hereby consent to the personal jurisdiction of any state or Federal court of the Commonwealth of Virginia, acknowledge that venue is proper in the Commonwealth of Virginia, agree that any action related to this Customer Agreement must be brought in a state or Federal court in the Commonwealth of Virginia, waive any objection that may exist, now or in the future, with respect to any of the foregoing.
If you purchased the 5 CARFAX Reports Plan and are not 100% satisfied, you qualify for a refund if:
> You have not, nor has any member of your household, received a refund from CARFAX within the last 12 months.
> You have run two or less CARFAX Reports on the Account.
> Your refund is requested within 90 days of purchase.
> A refund will not be provided if you have used the CARFAX Report or service for commercial purposes or otherwise violated the terms of use.

[stomachmonkey]

2nd line.

".....and is intended for my personal use only."

[Scooter]

"Commercial use, resale and redistribution of CARFAX Reports is strictly prohibited."

Seems pretty clear to me that getting a report for someone else is not permitted.

[gtc]

My reading of the next sentence leads me to believe they mean "commercial use, commercial resale, and commercial redistribution," and have simply screwed up their grammar.

Or maybe it's intentionally vague.

"Commercial Use" is defined as use by persons engaged in the business of researching, buying and/or selling of automobiles, the resale or redistribution of Reports, or any other business purpose as determined by CARFAX, Inc.

If I were to "redistribute" one of my $9 reports to someone without receiving compensation, it wouldn't be much of a business...

[stomachmonkey]

The real issue here is why should Wayne and or the mods here be expected to try and determine which request may or may not fall inside cafax's acceptable use?

Allowing people to share them on his site has no upside for him.

The only thing he gets out of it is a hassle at best.

If it were my site I would not allow it either.

[Scooter]

Originally Posted by gtc

My reading of the next sentence leads me to believe they mean "commercial use, commercial resale, and commercial redistribution," and have simply screwed up their grammar.

Or maybe it's intentionally vague.

I don't believe that would be a correct reading Graham.

Either way, it really does not matter. It's Wayne's site and he has decided to not allow this practice on his site. So be it. I respect his decision.

[Rick Lee]

I'm checking with a buddy at Carfax.

[Laneco]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

2nd line.

".....and is intended for my personal use only."

I see what your saying, but I am not really clear on the intent. I see the CARFAX commercials on TV everynight. The little fox pops up and reminds the person buying the car to "ask for the CARFAX" from the dealer. Seems to me the commercial is saying the dealer should run the CARFAX and give it to the customer. That seems arbitrary to the "intended for my personal use only" clause.

Rick? Let us know what you find, please.

angela

[Rick Lee]

My buddy is their chief spokesperson, so he'll know. But he's on the road right now. I hope to hear something today.

[widebody911]

I think it's a moot point; CarFax is all but useless now.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by widebody911

I think it's a moot point; CarFax is all but useless now.

I wouldn't take a clean Carfax as a clean bill of health. But a Carfax with some dings on it can help you ask the right questions and check the seller's honesty and knowledge about the car.

When I sold my 330i, the buyer pulled a Carfax that had no mention of the $7k repair from my getting rear-ended, but did mention a claim by the pedestrian who claims I hit her. Nothing more than her handprints were on the car after that. Buyer believed my story and I told him about the rear end repair.

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by widebody911

I think it's a moot point; CarFax is all but useless now.

OK, why do you think that?

[widebody911]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

OK, why do you think that?

When I was shopping for an M3, I saw two that had very obvious, major collision repairs - the kind that Stevie Wonder would see, yet their CarFaxes were clear. If there is a collision reported on CarFax, you don't get much detail. Do a google search and you'll see many more examples.

In theory, it's a good idea, but it would only work well with a much larger data collection mechanism.

CarFax is a triumph of marketing. (and yeah, I fell for it)

[GH85Carrera]

OK, that seems fair.

[cashflyer]

Carfax only shows what is reported to them.
Do you think Joe-Bobs Collision Center and Bait Shop is reporting to Carfax?
Do you think any DIYer is reporting to Carfax?

And it's not just the small shops that don't report. One of my pickup trucks was hit by a deer in 2003. Nearly $4000 worth of damage was repaired at the Dodge dealership's body shop. The Carfax was clear when I sold it in 2005.

In other words:
A Carfax with negative marks lets you know there are problems, but a clear Carfax does NOT indicate there are no problems. (as already mentioned in another post)

[Zeke]

Is it the repair facility that makes the report or the ins co's are mined for information? I'm thinking the latter.

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

The real issue here is why should Wayne and or the mods here be expected to try and determine which request may or may not fall inside cafax's acceptable use?

Allowing people to share them on his site has no upside for him.

The only thing he gets out of it is a hassle at best.

If it were my site I would not allow it either.

Well put. The "...intended for my personal use only" is pretty clear in my book. As for the dealers using them -- they purchase a commercial license to use Carfax, which has a different set of rules.

As for the usefulness of Carfax: I feel it is a useful tool in buying a used car - but it is not the only tool which should be used. When I bought my 944, I used the following tools during my search and eventual purchase:
- Carfax on several cars.
- A checklist that I developed based on my research.
- Test drive & interview with seller
- A pre-purchase inspection.

The checklist I used has stuff like:
- check for a froth-like substance on top of the oil cap -- this is a sign of oil/coolant mixing
- accelerate and lift off the throttle -- if there is a clunking noise, that means the rubber clutch hub is shot)
- On 914's: sit in passenger seat, open and close passenger door - if it doesn't close properly, chances are the frame of the is sagging due to rust / battery acid leaking.

The carfax report helped me weed out the obvious problem cars: ones with many owners, accidents..etc. Carfax also helped me confirm what the seller was saying. For example, the car I eventually purchased was a single owner car -- and Carfax verified that.

"Buyer beware" is a fact. The more tools a buyer uses, the more equipped he is to buy the proper car.

BTW: I will be selling my 944S2 soon. I think the ad is going to read something like this:
"For sale - 1989 944S2. Slightly modified; Special Porsche color: Matte Red; Carefully driven only on weekends short distances typically in clockwise direction and in parking lots; upgraded seats; religiously maintained, never driven fast.

Translation:
Slightly modified: drive it on the street if you want your fillings to fall out! (400lb springs up front)
Porsche color: faded red.
Weekend driver: at autocrosses and DE's.
Religiously maintained: I pray a lot while on the track!
Slowest person in group: Cause there's too many pesty GT3's in my run group.

Any takers?!?
-Z-man.