Did I say they were ghey?

We already talked about these. See my comments on them in this thread.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/488794-any-distance-fun-runners-wearing-vibram-five-fingers.html
The highlight (aside from my comments of course!) was this new shoe:

George

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1249144415.jpg

Absolutely true -- my calves are not the weak little things they once were. My first couple of months doing this were very hard on my calves. I've pulled through that now, though, and my calves are solidly built. Plantar fasciitis (sp?) is a problem that I was warned about, though the word on the street is that if you (a) build miles slowly and (b) pay attention to the warning signs that your feet give you and back off accordingly, it shouldn't be a problem. I sometimes get foot pain, but I back off for a couple of days, stretch out my feet really well, and I'm back at it no problems.

I'm pretty sure there are solid examples of people who have done a lot of long distance barefoot (or minimalist). In fact, let's face it -- everyone who did any running before about 1960 did it without the benefit of a modern shoe. Pheidippides, who ran back to Athens and yelled "Nike" (or whatever it was he actually said) before dying did it without arch support. Our ancestors, who ran animals to death on the plains, did it without heel padding. The elite runners of the world, the Kenyans, run barefoot. There is still a hundred mile mountain endurance race in Mexico run by people who wear home-made sandals made from recycled tires.

Given the thousands of years of human history that didn't involve the modern running shoe, it seems that there is at least reason for investigation before dismissal.

Dan

How are they different from track flats, watersports shoes, or any other shoe with minimal soles? Do the individual toes actually make a difference?

The biggest difference is that they allow your individual toes the ability to grab and aid in the stride, giving you extra traction and gate length. This is where your calves, or lack of development like mine, come into play. Like I mentioned, I have a pair up in my closet that I have been figuring out when I want to use them. I run about 15-20 miles a week and don't want to go through a 2-3 month relearning curve on how I run. I see nothing wrong with any of the theory and I do think that it does promote a better, safer running stride. One only needs to look at many of the African runners or other countries that don't have "The Finish Line" and how they learned to run when children when no athletic shoes were available. Many there are also running well into old age. I am relatively sure all animals run on their forefronts other then man.

Reading the title of this thread, I expected VERY different content... :)

There's a dude that in NorCal that does long trail runs in flip flops. Damn hippy.

Agreed with concern for calf muscles. Many many years ago I did a lot of running on the beach barefoot. Loved it. This summer I did a spontaneous 2 mile run on the beach barefoot and was a hobbling mess - felt like I tore both calf muscles. It took a good 2 months before they healed enough for me to run normally (w/shoes) again.

I'm gonna put these things on my Christmas list and start really slow - like walking a couple laps - and transition to short distance jogging and see how it goes.

Thanks for the input guys.

The KSO and the SPRINT are suitable for climbing and bouldering....
Dunno if they're as good as regular climbing shoes tho.

Id hate to have to do a toe-jam with those! OUCH!

Yeah I have a pair. I have not tried to run /jog with them. I can't afford any more back or knee discomfort than what I get wearing the running shoes. However, I cross train skipping rope and calisthenics in them.

Good question. The track flats that I ran with were never quite flat, and still encouraged a heel-first landing. The VFF won't let you land on your heel, hurts like heck. As I understand it, these were first built as watersports shoes -- kayaking, canoeing, and the like. I've never tried running in other watersports shoes, so I don't know.

As far as the toes go, I'd say that it does matter, but I'm not 100% sure of why. I do know that if I run in my old running shoes -- even if I run with the same form as I do in the Vibrams -- my feet hurt really bad afterward.

My first run, I went crazy, too. I did 2 miles and it took me a week to recover. I drank a lot of milk, ate a lot of bananas, and felt like I recovered pretty quick. It was muscle pain, not joint pain, you know?

It's all about starting slow: jog a few hundred yards, then a little farther. A friend and I started down this path together, and for each of us, it was "I made it to the stump 10 feet past the half-mile mark," or "I pushed just a little farther today, made it to the big tree, just past the stump..." Start with VERY short distances, work your way up SLOWLY. Remember: you're re-teaching your body how to run.

:) Enjoy.

Dan

I have not used Vibram fives, but I have been running in Puma driving shoes. The sole allows me to feel the ground and I cannot heal strike. My problem was knee pain on and off for years while running. From what I understand when you land on your heel you have zero stability on your foot so your knees and legs have to stabilize you. When you land on the ball of your foot your foot and toes stabilize you taking the strain off your knees. However when you go to this style of running you have to change your form a little bit. Don't lean forward, instead keep your body straight and bend your knees slightly. You should almost not even feel or hear your feet strike when doing it correctly. Oh yeah and your calves will hurt like heck until you build them up again.

If you doubt that this is a proper way to run it is easy to demonstrate to yourself how you should be running. On a cold day take off your shoes and run a short distance on cold pavement. Do you strike your heal? Would you even try to strike your heal? How do you use the arch of your foot? Do you use the arch of your foot when heal striking? Why on earth would anyone think heal striking is a good idea?

Anyway, I have been slacking a bit this summer on running and did a higher mile run earlier this week. The next morning nothing hurt. That felt nice.........

If you don't have the right sort of foot, you will have a more difficult time, to the point of being incapable of using them.

You can have a situation where you exert more force than a structure can take, the foot can break at the top of the arch, middle of the foot, ligaments and tendons break, or pull off a little piece of bone, the tendon can attenuate or stretch out, akin to a pair of socks that lose(loose) their elastic and won't stay up. Have seen injuries to Achilles tendon at back of ankle, posterior tibial tendon at inside of ankle, peroneus brevis at outside of ankle in people trying the barefoot thing. Seen a few stress fractures too. It helps to do proprioception/range of motion excercises to improve your abillity to know position of foot and strengthen muscles acting on foot and ankle. Spelling the alphabet out using your big toe or doing circles, getting one of those big rubber band type things can be handy too.

My BIL wears those crazy looking things and he loves them. He's a marathon runner and he claims they're the best...

As usual it has taken me 6+ months to research and finally pull the trigger...:( A good friend of mine (same age and ailments) recently contacted me with an outstanding 6 month review so I said to myself it was finally time to get off the fence.

I went with the standard black KSO (keep stuff out) model as I intend to wear these around the house, running errands, going to the gym, and of course running - which happens on the local CSUSM track that has a sweet rubberized surface. I could not pull the trigger on the brightly colored Vibram options just yet... Despite the basic black my wife informed me today that I now a card carrying member of the dork club...;)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1312409442.jpg

Sizing is smaller - I wear a 10.5 US shoe and was fitted with a 41 Euro. I have been working on the natural running method over the last month or so and work in a couple laps barefoot as well. Definite muscle tenderness in the calves and ankle area but it's getting better. I will report back after another couple months in the VFF.

Hey, just in time for Planet Of The Apes 2011!

My 14yo son wears them. They sure do stink after a few days! Just sayin....

I tried a pair of Merrell Trail Gloves yesterday. Was going to use them as water/camp shoes when backpacking. Didn't like the way they fit my feet. Nice looking barefoot shoe though.

For a camp shoe, check out a pair of Sanuks... I love mine, and they stuff in my backpack nicely.

I'll give them a look. Thx.

I usually take a pair of felt bottom water shoes for slippery stream crossings or Keen waterproof sandals for general comfort. Leaving Saturday for Isle Royale. Not sure which pair will be in my pack yet. Probably the water shoes, since I'll be wading as I chase 40+ inch northern pike......