Another "Help Me Pick My Next Daily Driver" Thread
 

A little background...SmileWavy

I bought a 1999 VW Passat new and have been driving it to work everyday for the past 11 years. It has been completely trouble-free (despite the reputation of the B5 platform). It is black metallic with tan leather, 5-speed manual, and currently has 137K on the clock. I have done all the maintenance myself, which has only been brake pads and rotors, tires, oil changes, fuel filter, serpentine belt, air filters, cabin filters, timing belt, shocks, and steering linkages (ball joints, tie rods etc). It is still on the original clutch.

So, recognizing that this is probably a $3K car at this point, and it will need a clutch and potentially other costly maintenance as it gets up there in additional miles, I am beginning to think about my next car.

And while I love all kinds of cars, I can't come to grips with a $1,000 per month lease payment to get something cool, and change it out every two years. I figure the total cost of ownership for the Passat was somewhere in the $200 per month range, and I honestly still enjoy driving it everyday.

So...I am looking to upgrade significantly for my next car, but I am wanting to stick to the same longevity requirements. Here is what I am thinking:

I want something with some soul, some performance, some comfort, and some timeless styling. I want something that will go 100K with nothing more than routine maintenance. I want something that I can keep for 10 years. I don't care about gas mileage, as I pretty much only drive back and forth to work. I want to look forward to getting in this car and driving every morning. All wheel drive would be "nice", as I will drive this pretty much through Kansas City winters. I want something that will stick my passengers to their seat when I press the go pedal! I want a "special" model, i.e. not the base model of an expensive marque. As a result, I will likely be limited to "pre-owned" cars.

I find myself continually looking at M5's, M3's, AMG Sedans and 996 Turbo's. Nothing else really jumps out at me. Something like a BMW 335 or 550 would be possible, potentially if it takes well to mods. But I am completely open to trying various other suggestions to see if they fit the bill. Oh, and budget is up to $50K. Newer is better, as I want to preserve the styling as long as I can. In other words, I want the car to still look "current" 7 or 8 years from now. My Passat, while certainly no "special" or "soulful" or "performance" car, has fit this bill pretty nicely over the past 10 years, for a very reasonable cost. I want to do the same thing now, but in an upper bracket marque.

What I am looking for here is insight into which models "best" fit these requirements. I know there are no guarantees around longevity, but which of these "supercars" are the lowest risk from a catastrophic failure of some sort over the 10 year, 100K interval? I am willing to look at somewhat "older" model years, i.e. back to 2001 or so, assuming very low miles and excellent condition. So if a particular 2001 model year car (say 996 Turbo for example) has been meticulously cared for and only has 20K miles, that would be fine.

Anyway, sorry for the long read, but there are a number of folks on this board who have been down this path, and many who are experts on many of these European Sport Sedans / Supercars.

Any and all feedback is appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

JA

Do you need to haul more than 2 people? Do you have kids?

If no to both questions, a late model M3 would be a good choice. Not AWD but with TC and good tires winter driving would be ok.

If you need the size of a mid-size, the M5 or MB AMG version would be nice.

A 911 C4S would be excellent in all seasons and they are priced reasonably now.

BTW-one could believe that you are a RUSH fan?;)

I do have kids (9 year old and 6 year old), but very rarely carry any passengers at all. If I do need to take the kids somewhere, the 9 year old can sit in the front, and the 6 year old in the back, even in a 996 Turbo, since it is such a rare exception. And even if I needed to carry 4 adults, it is so infrequently that they could suffer through the smaller, virtually non-existent back seat of the Turbo or 3-Series. In other words, those criteria are not really even a consideration.

Along those lines, however, I am 6'6" tall, and about 255 lbs, so I never fit perfectly in any car. The Passat leg and head room is fantastic, and the seat adjustability allows me incredible comfort. For this next car, I am willing to even have the driver's seat modified if absolutely necessary, in order to get me into a comfortable driving position. But my guess is that all of these are pretty good in the leg/headroom department, even the 996 Turbo.

JA

EDIT: And while I am a Rush fan, that particular quote from Red Barchetta really resonates with me, so I put it there as an inspirational reminder!

Oh, another quick question...do the new Audi's still have the same reliability issues and maintenance horrors? I was thinking about the S5, which seems to REALLY fit all of my criteria well!! That said, if they are basically the same platform as they were 5-10 years ago, I don't think I will take that risk again.

Thanks,

JA

The 996 Turbo sounds like it's on your mind but what about family trips? Sure, the kis will fit but what about luggage?

With your height, I would veer towards the MB or BMW 6 and 7 series.

Think "Transporter".:D

M3 or Subaru STi. (that's what I keep on looking to...)

i would buy a turbo subaru legacy. new wheels, some suspension upgrades..and that car would be wicked fast.

the styling is sporty wagon. all wheel drive, and it will definately stick your passengers to the seats, searching for the imaginary brake pedal.

I've never paid attention to leases, but holy crap seriously? People drop that much on a lease? :confused:

A 996 turbo would be loads of fun, a huge step up from what you have now. Maintenance I'm sure would be as well however, although it sounds like you drive a car easy because the one you have now has held up so well.

"Family trips" are not a concern for this car. We have a Ford Expedition for that. I have my '73 911 for track work, and also a motorcycle for fun. This will just be a back and forth to work car, and weekend trips to a buddy's house and stuff like that.

The Suburu STi certainly has all the aspect covered EXTREMELY well, except one in my opinion....styling. I definitely respect them, but the look is far from inspiring.

The M3 and M5 are great, but I worry about driving a BMW for 100K miles. They have so many bells and whistles that I fear a lot of headaches after about 60K.

The 996 Turbo is such a special car, it just seems like even if something did go wrong, it would be "worth" fixing. And they are so much simpler (from an electronics and gadget perspective) than the BMW's.

The only "concern" I have with the 996 Turbo, is the comfort factor. It is considerably smaller than the others, as well as a lot smaller than the Passat I have today. Being a big gorilla like I am, and at 46 years old, I am just wondering if I wouldn't enjoy the comfort of a big, powerful sedan better.

What about a 2005 E55 AMG? Can I get 100K trouble-free miles out of a car like that? Or a 2008 C63 AMG? Reliable for 10 years if taken care of?

JA

JA

996 Turbo sounds like the obvious choice given the new info.

You can't beat the prices now.

They are bigger on the inside than appearance suggests.

I just purchased a 997S with the intention of driving it for at least 5 years. Its tiptronic. Very comfortable car. Just a shade more than 50k. CPO warranty and only 13k on the clock.

I think Subarus are a great option. And STI outback would be a blast to drive, and practical as well.

I'm a big fan of the CPO programs. You get 2-3 year old lease return cars that are virtually new for 30-50% off the new cost, and you get a warranty. My 997 was my third CPO purchase.

Where do you live? Do you get snow or bad roads?

I DD a 2005.5 audi s4 (the newer one….but not the newest), it fits just about all of your criteria, I bought it CPO for 25k, it had 50k on the clock and the cpo covers bumper to bumper for 24 months and up to 100k.

The car is AWD and good in the snow....it is heavy and kind of sucks on gas if you play around with it, the TQ is great and it is fun to push around corners and on ramps....the things revs up nice when you get on the gas. It can be very fast when you want but it will oversteer a good deal.

A fun car to dd and very comfortable for everyday use….everything has held up well and the build on the car is just about rock solid. It is a sleeper and draws very little attention which is good at speed.

I am looking to get a new DD in the spring, maybe, and have looked at the new s4 and the new m3.

Both very nice cars, the m3 is next level in performance and you don’t have awd, that said it is for sure the best sports sedan out there.

I also like the idea of a CPO 996 turbo, just not sure if that is practical enough with 2 kids….that is want the 911 is for I guess.

I would stay away from MB amg cars most have been driven hard and the handling is not really there. They are also very expensive to fix…..not impressed.

I think the audi is worth a look.....I drove the new s4 and it is very nice the suspension has been dialed in, but you loose the 8cyl.....but you can mod the fi 6....so maybe that is better in the longrun.

Kevin

I would also like to say a big fat NO to Mercedes. Great cars on many levels, but the quality is still not there.

2000-2002 BMW M Coupe:

http://germancarsforsaleblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/MG_3503.jpg

http://www.theautochannel.com/cybercast/laautoshow98/images/bmw_m_coupe.jpg

http://carfreaks.net/g2/15070-3/mr_mcoupe.jpg

Has the S54 Engine (315hp), reliable, sexy, and it's really unique. You can find really nice examples with very little use for 20k-30k.

I too went through this debate. I have a generally well-behaved 99 Passat V6 5spd w/ 156K still on its original clutch which was still in good shape when the belts were done at 148K. Original suspension too still doing well. It wants a valve cover gasket right now though. I started wondering about the clutch after reading clutch stories on the 944's (rubber center). The Passat has a spring centered clutch. Over on PassatWorld there are multiple individuals with over 200K on their original clutches and even one person at over 320K. With your history of staying on top of maintainence you quite likely will be good for quite some time.

On 335's there is the HPFP issue which is covered under warranty for 10yr, 120K miles. Mine was replaced at 42K. The 335 has more oompf and with the sport suspension is a good compromise in accessiblity for family vs fun for me. Rear seat is smaller and the trunk space is slightly smaller as well compared to the Passat. Headroom is somewhat less but with a coupe the seat will move quite far back. Gas mileage has been only mildly worse than the Passat, 29mpg @ 60mph avg from Indianapolis to SE WI going through Chicago. A M3 would be more fun still. Newer models have more electronic things to potentially cause mayhem with age so while I'm hoping to keep this one a good long time as well I'm a bit less confident

With your criteria the 996TT sounds like a no brainer. It is the only car of the bunch that really qualifies as special. The M5 has VANOS issues that cost thousands to repair, and the leather and interior does NOT wear well. The M3 has carbon buildup issues that are also pricey to fix, as well as subframes that are prone to tear from the unibody. The AMG and S4 are cool cars but not particularly reliable, and ultimately they are simply hot-rodded versions of average cars. The 996TT is a daily driver supercar.

Matt,

Thanks for pretty much confirming where my head already was. It is reassuring to hear your comments on the BMWs and Mercedes, as I also just didn't feel like they were "worth" buying.

I think I can keep the 996 Turbo for 10 years and still have a pretty cool car. And these cars are now selling literally for 30 cents on the dollar of their original cost, even for one in excellent condition with low miles.

Any good sources for finding these cars? Anyone here have access to auction buying? I would be willing to travel to purchase if the right car came around.

Thanks to everyone for the feedback.

JA

I'd think a 996 TT would be an awesome DD. I'm thinking the 997TT or TTS will be getting downright reasonable when I get out of school. Can you all guess what my first stupid purchase will be once I get gradiated? :D

JA, Kaisen on this BBS is a dealer and has done auto locating for several Pelicans who were positive about the experience. I think Terrybpp (correct?) also just started as a salesman at a Porsche dealership in Florida.

I drove an E39 M5 a short time back and was very underwhelmed, it really didn't impress me more than a 540i. That's part of the motivation for my comments.

Not to encourage more debate on the subject....but if I were to be buying a "special" car to DD for $50k and a turbo Porsche was the choice, I would be looking for a 993 turbo….awd, closer to the "original" 911 and highly collectable in 10+ years…..less to go wrong as well.

I would also argue that a well maintained 993 will last far longer with fewer issues than a 996.
Your initial search will be harder, but ultimately more rewarding…..just my 2 cents.

I actually agree the s4 is nothing special, but it makes a great DD.

I would agree that the 993TT will better hold it's value, but ultimately the 996TT is basically a better all-around car, particularly considering how affordable they are. I would also disagree in the reliability front, overall the 996 has proven to be a very reliable Porsche. I think a lot of purists get caught up on the air vs water cooled issue and miss the fact that the 996 is a damn good car.

But hey, let's face it, you really can't go wrong with either. :)

I'd vote for a 996TT if all wheel drive is necessary

Also consider the original twin-turbo Audi RS6, again if all wheel drive is part of the criteria and the 996TT is too small

JA, suggest, given the cars you indicate are of interest to you, a Lexus GS series.

I've owned just about every brand under the sun, and Lexus has been the best from a reliability stand point so far. Not to mention, the level of service and comfort.

Good luck in your search!

Excellent responses! Certainly a lot of support and consensus around the 996TT, which is what I was pretty much set on from the get-go.

I will definitely look at the RS6, as I do not even know what that is at this point. And interesting comment about the Lexus. While I don't think Lexus typically has that "soul" I am looking for, I may be able to live without that given all the other positives that are clear in the Lexus. I will research the model suggested as well.

Kaisen, can I PM you about location services?

Thanks,

JA

If you're looking at Lexus, you should also look at the IS-F. I would think they are $50k used by now.

He said he wanted a car with a soul. Lexus, even the IS-F, just doesn't. The GS is a very pleasant daily driver. The IS-F would suck as a DD, and still not be near as fun as a 996TT.

Feel free to contact me.

Hopefully MRM chimes in. I helped him acquire a 2003 Audi RS6 this Summer, and he was considering a 996TT as well (although not to fill the same purpose). He's taller than me (I'm 6'2") so he may have useful feedback on comfort. Anyway, those RS6's have a twin-turbo V8 good for 450hp stock and 540hp (like MRM's) with some mild software tuning. Its performance envelope is stunning and it does everything pretty well. It might not be a four door 996TT, but it's pretty close. Ask Mike how he likes his.

Ok...just did some looking. The RS6 is fantastic! And the Lexus GS look nice too, but it is a Lexus. And I very quickly stumbled upon a recall for them related to cracked valve springs.

One question I have...how is the reliability on the RS6? Cost of repairs? Any weak spots? Can I get 100K trouble-free miles out of it? It sure does look like the closest thing to a bigger, 4-door 996TT that you could find. And with 500HP, and all-wheel drive...wow!

The big question is just longevity. Any experience/comments there? I will do some more reading. I will look at cost comparisons for used RS6's vs 996TT's. And I will make sure I get ahold of MRM somehow to get his impressions!


Thanks a lot!!

JA

I'm thinking that what you REALLY need is a late-80's dodge caravan complete with faux wood paneling on the sides.
One that has a turbo and will do mid 12's in the quarter:

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Anytime you have 400+ horsepower, things get stressed. I'd say the RS6 and 996TT are pretty equal in terms of internet anecdotal evidence of reliability. However, there are far fewer high-mile daily-driven 996TTs.

The weak spot on the RS6 is the transmission, and the DRC computer controlled dampers. The dampers are easy, when the time comes rip them out and put in high quality coilovers. Mike has the Stasis/Ohlins setup and I can tell you that while the ride is firmer (and adjustably lower), it is not harsh. The transmission concerns are real, esp for modified cars or cars that have been used hard (see AMG, M5, STI comments above). Many aftermarket companies offer modified TCU software that change the algorythms and torque converter lockup and that seems to help the ZF transmission take the punishment better. Just put aside some money for a 'Level 5' rebuild with hardened components, or don't do power launches on pavement. Same with a 996TT though.

A 2001 996TT is still a little more than a similar 2003 RS6, but not by much. The RS6 was a $85K+ car new, and they only made a few (860 for the US). You can buy a nice RS6 for $25-30K. Check out RS6.com for lots more info.

Whoa...What about RS5??!!! Is that basically the same car as RS6, but only in 2-door? Look at this pic!! Basically an all-wheel drive M3??!!




http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1292179127.jpg

RS5 is more of a M3, where RS6 is more M5. The ur-RS6 (C5) is a completely different beast.

But there's NOTHING wrong with the RS5. It's just apples to oranges. And they're a lot more money, being several years newer. I'd love to have one.

What about the S5 and S6? Too pedestrian?

JA

I like the S8, but then I'm tall and sick of small cars...:)

"He said he wanted a car with a soul. Lexus, even the IS-F, just doesn't. The GS is a very pleasant daily driver. The IS-F would suck as a DD, and still not be near as fun as a 996TT."

kaisen, I would agree with you if you were correct. You know not of what you speak :)

"soul" por favor, these are mechanical devices, not people...

My wife's current IS350 is a little hot rod and a blast to drive. She had an IS300 prior to the 350, and it was a hoot as well.

Can't say anything about the 996TT, haven't had one. I've had a 2x996’s and my wife owned a Boxster S Spyder. Both were fun, but several issues (ISF failure in the Spyder) and the Porsche dealers service can't even stand in the same room with Lexus. Not that Porsche is bad, just not in the same league as Lexus.

In regard to the valve spring recall, my wife's IS350 had this done. Was at the dealer for 2 days, they gave her a loaner, and Lexus sent her a letter after extending her drive train warranty for a 100k miles.

Just my $.02 worth

If you can't connect to the soul of a car, then you are right, and the perfect candidate to appreciate a Lexus

I'm sure it's a hoot, just not as much of a hoot as the M3, C63, RS4, or CTS-V to name a few. If you think differently, your tastes are just different than others. I'm glad you like your Lexus past and present. They are very pleasant cars, as I mentioned.

The IS-F is different than the IS350. The IS-F is a paper contender, but fails to capture the 'je ne sais quoi' of the aforementioned cars. Tries too hard, IMHO as it screams boy racer in both styling and suspension. I've never driven a modern car that rides harsher. The others seem to do the same job with better compliance. Sweet engine, though.

It's fairly universal that Lexus service is great. Other manufacturers are hit and miss depending on the city. If you happen to live in a city that has a great Porshe dealer, you'd likely gush about their service too. It just depends. My local Lexus dealer happens to be just down the road from Mercedes, which happens to also carry Porsche and (although they moved to their own facility) Audi. I can tell you from personal (and customer) experience that Maplewood Imports (MB/Porsche/Audi) is every bit the service experience as Lexus of Maplewood. I'm sure others here will concur. But your local dealer may be different. Lexus is consistent.

If you buy a car based on dealer service (or consumer magazine's rated 'reliability', etc), you may miss the point of the car, unless it is just an appliance to you. In which case a Lexus is truly a fine choice.

Only you know what's too pedestrian, but compared to a 996TT...

The S5 is really just the coupe version of the A4/S4. Naturally aspirated V8 power (350hp), Quattro all wheel drive, and small size. The RS5 just has the RS4's high-strung V8 and almost 100 horsepower more than the 'plain' S5. Neither are pedestrian, S and RS have always been special. Just a little more watered down nowadays but the same could be said for the M and AMG cars.

The S6 is not at all pedestrian. It represents a MUCH larger leap from the A6 than the S4/S5 does from the A4. The S6 had a V10 rated at almost 450hp. So, yeah, it's FAR from pedestrian. More like the M5, but a little more sheep than wolf. There was also a 'new' RS6 but it never came here.... again a twin-turbo version good for 570hp (definitely wolf).

It's all what you want to spend. The late model S6 and S5 are going to be expensive and will keep depreciating. Your cost of ownership would likely be less with a 996TT.

My observations (i know this is all fun) i have this debate with myself several times a day.....(best dd car that is).

The new rs5 will not be anywhere near the new M3.....if you want souless buy the rs5 (this is coming from an s4 driver).

Here is the reason, my S4 is a GREAT car, it does many, many things well….BUT performance was down the list when the engineer’s concocted this thing, drivability, comfort and chassis (a4 platform) all took precedent.

I would stay away from an older Audi or BMW, for a few reasons, the technology is older, a 2003 car will be 10 years old in the blink of an eye, also once you get past one owner cars things can get dicey and Audi is not cheap to fix…..is the rs6 a great car, yes, will it “age” well, probably not, it is an Audi enthusiast car, not Porsche.

The new M3 (2008+) is an amazing car, I would argue quite a bit closer to a 996tt in performance than ANY, yes ANY un-modified Audi…..yes, I would dd an M3 sedan in a heartbeat.

However, JA, if you can live with the practicality (or lack thereof) of the 996tt, then that is the car for you (or maybe a 993tt as was so wisely suggested).

Drive your 911 to the audi dealer and drive the new S4, this will be better than all of the previous models and can be had NEW with a warranty for your 50K. Then drive to the BMW dealer and drive the M3, and last but not least drive the 996tt. I made the 996tt last as you will most likely buy it on the spot.

Audi, BMW and Porsche are apples to apples to oranges……

SO true.

JA, you never answered if all wheel drive will be important??

Do you live where you get snow and ice?

Kaisen...sorry, I had mentioned driving through Kansas City winters in my first post, but yes, there is snow/ice here. 2WD is not a deal-breaker, but I would probably have to adjust my budget so that I could buy some sort of Jeep or something for those days where I just can't make it.

Along those lines, how practical is an AWD "sports car" in the snow/ice? The traction in these cars is really designed for performance driving it would seem, not so much "4-Wheelin'" LOL!

They sit so low with the front air-dams and such, just how much snow is too much? 3 inches? 4 inches? 6 inches? I assume I would have to buy a set of winter tires and wheels, as 295's or whatever comes on 996TT would likely be a sled!

JA