Tabs - need help assessing a gun

[myamoto1]

Hi Tabs,

My dad has the opportunity to purchase the gun below. Looking to get a rough fair market value on the gun. Let me know if you need pics of any particular part of the gun.

TIA - Josh

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

Can you remove the dirt/debris from the cylinder? What is the barrel like inside? Man, that wood can be brought back but... If there is ANYTHING missing you will be hard pressed to replace, a good tool and die maker who dabbles in gunsmithing?

Is that a modified Buffington sight? If so, it is missing some parts, but those can be located.

I would not wish to venture a guess on value. Custom made, is that trigger guard original (I am not sure but guess not)? I've been wrong before, and will be again, but the way it appears to me to fit in the pictures does not look the same as the other fitments done by the maker.

It is hard for me to tell from the photos, but how does the stock meet the gun behind the trigger? I am not sure this was maker correct, but I really do not know. The wood appears to be altered in order to fit, but again, I am not sure.

The dirt and debris around the cylinder and trigger really detract from it's beauty and value. Significantly. I like the form of the stock, whether or not it is original, and the wood can be brought back.

This type of gun (if it is in firing condition, I cannot tell from the photos) is a hoot to shoot. Make sure the cylinder turns true and aligns with the barrel. Loved an old Colt (1860s) that was this way, but it was a converted pistol for horseback with the detachable stock. Wish I had the spare change to have bought it from my friend. Someone else ended up with a very nice little shooter.

Hope my ramblings help, but I am out of the loop too far to provide a value range and would have trouble valuing such a piece in it's current condition with so many unknowns in my mind.

[myamoto1]

David - thanks for the feedback. The gun is on the opposite coast from me, so I haven't seen it in person, only the pics posted above. I'm sure with a little work, the gun can be cleaned up. The gun is in his possesion, but not in his name. While he's tempted to clean it up, he's knows that will keep the price down (assuming it's worth buying).

From my father's perspective, it probably wouldn't be a gun that he'd use, just a nice collectable. You mentioned the trigger guard might not be original. Any other pics that would help determine that or something in particular my dad should look for to help determine originality?

Thanks again for the insights.

[tabs]

It IS a Colt style Revolving rifle that was custom made. These were pre American Civil war period guns. This gun features what looks like Nimiscke Engraving..or the NY style, and a very nice piece of wood for the stock. The action that was used to make the rifle is a Remington model 1858 percussion. I can not make out the makers name.

In my estimation this was a high quality item in its day. The downside for a collector today is that it is not a COlt, Smith & Wesson or even Remington factory item. This gun falls into the nether world of collectability. I would think its cache falls into the Percussion rifle and Shotguns catagory, then the maker if well known adds value...


Now as with everythig it depends on price...At $500 it is a definate buy...nice wood and engraving and the gun will clean up well. At $1000 to $1200 would be it for me..

What I really thinks makes this item is the STOCK and Engraving...that is where the value is, that shows me that it was a high cost quality item.

With more research the value might be higher?

Some one really greased the gun up for storage..that indicates care and once really well cleaned it will probably be mechanically sound..

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

I have little insight but:

The fitment of the cylinder and the tooling appear to be from a skilled workman. The trigger just appears to me to be of good construction and fits the body.

When I look at the attachment of the trigger guard behind the trigger I do not get a sense of highly skilled craftsmanship. I get the same feeling looking at the way the guard attaches in front of the trigger. Again, these are just general feelings and not related to any personal knowledge of work done under the supervision of D.T. Deeley.

There is not much out on the web about these weapons. In some instances it just becomes a market as to what one is worth to a person and what one is willing to pay.

Is there any verifiable documentation?

Take for instance the pistol turned rifle I referenced above, it was, IIRC, an 1863 colt ball and cap. The gun had been through the armory ten or so too many times. Nothing really matched, but it could be shot. The barrell was elongated and the stock was a screw on with an antique style holder, very period correct for after Civil War. Zero documentation. Unknown age on the stock though the metal was correct to period.

We joked it wasn't worth $500.00. Such a one off piece with absolutely zero provenance, who knows... Sold to a Colt collector. My friend made money (he held the gun for several years) and the collector thought he had something. In my mind, and I am VERY likely wrong, this is the same thing! An expert in firearms with his name stamped on the piece, an interesting period style of weapon, not a common piece, but how to place a value?

Oh, did I mention the mid sight appeared to be missing pieces? I do not know if it is or not but I'm looking for an eyepiece, apature, hole to be looking through. Should be adjustable with distance markings on the piece that is still attached to the rifle. There were several designs, but to my untrained eye I named it as a particular style. I could be wrong!

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

Tabs,

I am with you on the wood!!! I LOVE that wood and the fittings! High quality!!

D. T. Deeley
Maker

He had some interesting stuff, mainly in shotguns.

What do you think about the way the stock is fitted to the body? Does this appear to be accurate to you? I was thinking the connection was done after the orignal stock was lost, but I do not know. The trigger guard also has me a bit concerned...

I hate putting a value on this, but $500.00 would be a definate buy. You do not see this type of weapon on the market very often. It was a specialty back then.

Being a Deleey just adds to the I don't know of value...

[tabs]

The rear sight is a typical Ladder sight..The trigger guard is attached in the same fashion as Percussion and Flintlock rifle trigger guards are attached.

This weapon has all the feel of a percussion rifle or flintlock rifle of the period, using much of the same type of furniture that would be used on one of those guns. Except that someone wanted a special modern revolving rifle made...

BTW..this appears to be an American made gun, while John Deely was a Brit...so there is probably no conncetion.

[tabs]

The gun started life out being a pistol..

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

I'll buy that it started out life as a pistol. That would explain the stock and trigger guard. I am used to a better appearing trigger guard attachment but I do not look at near the quantity of spoons you do...

D. T. Deeley on the stamp, not John. I am not knowledgeable enough to know what the difference or connection could be but I am assuming family member.

Again, as we both said, with this type of one off piece it is really hard to pin it all down.

I appreciate you giving a top end on pricing as I am not confortable providing with my lack of knowledge and being out of looking at spoons for the past couple of years.

But this is a neat type of weapon!!

[myamoto1]

So general consensus is that it's a good and worthy purchase for $500 or less. I'll see if I can get some better pics of the trigger guard area along with the sight.

Thanks again for the education!

[myamoto1]

OK - got some more pictures of the gun:







My dad has also been doing some research as well and specifically noted that the trigger guard looks exactly like that from a Colt of the same time period. He also said the overall look and design seems to match the Colt as well. I'm way out of my league here, so I defer to the experts (and remind myself that dad doesn't see as well as he used to).

Cheers

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

I would like to see more of how the trigger guard fits the piece, maybe some stuff from the bottom? Seeing more of the barrel and the shot of the fitment for the stock and trigger guard I begin to wonder if this started life out as a pistol or not, but it VERY well could have.

Surface rust on the barrel needs to be addressed ASAP.

I have a German trigger guard in silver that has the same design almost exactly and is from the same period. I believe the design was beautiful enough and easy enough to produce that several manufacturers did it, but I could be wrong...

If you can, what is the asking price? Cleaned up and some work done on the stock this would be a lovely piece to own. (Sorry, I am not in a position to buy but curious!)

[myamoto1]

I tried getting more pics, but my dad said "he's done taking pictures". Hopefully, he'll end up with the gun (fairly confident that'll happen) and I can get better pics after it has been cleaned up. Any suggestions on how to deal with the rust?

At the risk of pissing off every gun collector out there, I'll give you a little back story on where the gun came from. The next door neighbor used to collect all kinds of cool things, guns, swords, etc. He passed away 10+ years ago. His wife remarried to a guy w/ no interest in those things. She sadly passed a year or so ago. The "new" husband is now cleaning out the house for sale.

In the process, he came across several German Officer Lugar pistols - which he promptly handed over to the local police. There were also a few other pistols that were handed over as well. Needless to say, my dad damn near shat himself upon learning what had happened and has convinced the neighbor not to give the police any more guns he finds. The guy really has no interest in the stuff and my dad is begging the guy to let him help clean out the rest of the basement, in hopes of finding another stash of goodies.

So all that being said, no asking price - just whatever my dad offers, assuming he'll sell it. Based on his history, we're pretty sure he will. Don't want to screw the guy, but also looking for a good but reasonable price to pay for the gun. If you were in a position to buy, what is the most you would pay for the gun, knowing what you know (i.e. no more trigger guard info )

[red-beard]

Is the gun/rifle in Upstate NY? It would explain the handing over to the police.

[myamoto1]

Yes, but not sure what that has to do with it. I haven't lived there for 20 something years, so I'm probably a bit out of touch w/ the regs. My father has his CCW and when I was a kid, never had any issues with owning a rifle. Pistols can be an issue if they're not store bought or an inherited item. The ones given away were inherited and I believe they were registered to the first husband.

Either way, they're gone now. One can only hope that an officer saw what they were and saved them from being turned into scrap.

[tabs]

Colt Percussions of that era did NOT have top straps over the cylinder...Remington did...so if it looks like Remington, smells like Remington it is Remington

The trigger guard looks nothing like a Colt of that era or any other era..it does look exactly like the trigger guards on Percussion Rifles of the era and on flintlock rifles of an earlier era. So that must be what it is...as a matter of fact it looks like Philidelphia to me...or probably in NY or MA by the quality of the workmanship..

Surface rust..Lemon oil and one of those Stainless spirally pot scouring pad thingys...that should take of the rust and not the finish..

My recommendation is to pay a gunsmith $50 or $100 to do the job so that it isn't fked up..the idea is to take off the gunk and leave the finish...if you take off the finish and or remove the nice mellow yellow of the brass..YOU LOSE VALUE...

In this case you should follow the advice of the Antiques Roadshow...do not fk with the origianl finsih..ever..it costs you big time homes..

Wave money in front of the dingbat next door..that will get his attention

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

I might wave a C note and see what happens. Mention the transaction is not improper/illegal because it is a black powder weapon and currently non-operational. Then get ye to a smith and do what TABS suggested! (I'd help clean out the basement for free!!!)

Why couldn't the person in new york take the pieces to a museum so others could appreciate them? Just sayin'...

[myamoto1]

The guy just has no clue or appreciation for this type of thing. There are supposed to be several samurai swords in the house as well. My dad has offered to help for free. I'm pushing him to push back on the neighbor a little more. God forbid you sell the house and a kid finds a hidden gun or sword and hurts themselves... Guilt may be the best approach

I'll definitely pass along the recommendations to my dad. He was thinking of offering around $300 for it. I'm sure he could probably get it for less, but he wants to be (somewhat) fair to the guy. It's that whole kharma thing. If you honestly think $300 is too high, then I'll tell him to offer less. Or at least factor in $100 or so into the price to have it cleaned.

[tabs]

Work on the GREED angle give $300 and then ask to see if you can find more guns and stuff. Remember other gun related stuff can be very valuable as well.

[myamoto1]

Not sure the greed thing will work with him, considering he gave away (I think 2) lugers in decent condition along with some other guns. Really a shame. Of course, that's aways a good back-up plan if all else fails. You're dead on with the real goal of gaining access to the basement to see what else may be lurking down there.

Thanks again for all of your and David's input.