time for (3) lever action sight ins-need info

[ODDJOB UNO]

ok as time has allowed i have been building (3) marlin stainless steel lever actions into UBER LEVER ACTIONS. 1894 CS-.357/1894SS-.44mag/1895GS-45/70. name it within reason we have done it. yesterday we took the final step and installed williams dovetail firesights front and rear on (2) of them. this is the game changer here. and could quite possibly get damn spendy, if not done correctly.


and thats what i want: the "correct/fastest/cheapest/most dead nutz" manner to sight these (3) lever actions in.


have already lazer(laser) boresighted them and they seem fairly close.


have brass mallet and punch ready to go for rear dovetail. pray i dont have to dick with front dovetail as they are a damn tight fit.


my questions as these will be zeroed for 100yds. no scopes on them evar.


1) should i start at 25yd line?

2) start at 50yd line?

3) start at 100yd line?


will be using like hornaday ammo for each. leverevolution brand.



should i use the lazer(laser) bore sighter at range? or be happy at 10yds as per boresighters directions?


yes i know to shoot (3) rds and then let barrel cool.


if POI(point of impact) needs to go left do i punch rear sight to the left? and vice a versa to the right? or do i play with front sight first and do the same?



what is the EASIEST method here to do this without blowing my shoulder off with the 45/70 which will be the last sighted,due to its ornery behavior off the bench with full loads.


since i have (3) to do , i need to do this fairly quickly and efficiently as possible and put this project to rest and move on.



your thoughts????

[vash]

i just realized, that i have never sighted in an open sights rifle.

shot one,and it was decent to 100 yards. this was a winchester 30.30 if i remember correctly.

you move the rear sight in the direction you want to move the bullet impact. (i think..my bow is the opposite)

cool stuff..let us know how this works out. if it were me, i would use a BIG target and throw a hail mary at 50 yards.

[id10t]

Drifting the sights... get some paper and draw a diagram. Front and rear sight make a line, goes way out to the target. which way to drift rear sight to have said line also contact bullet holes ... drift to the right to move holes to the right

I'd shoot at 25 to get your left/right mostly on, then move to 100 for vertical on the 45-70. I'd sight the 357 and 44 in to be dead on at 75 - little high at 50, little low at 100 (pushing it for 357, just on the edge for the 44)

A quick search shows that with you 1.5" high at 50 yards should put you close to dead on at 100 with the 357 and 44

[ODDJOB UNO]

yeah you take iron sights for granted these days, and usually they are proof shot at factory, and reasonably accurate out of the box.



butt as always i cannot leave well enough alone with anything and thats always a PITA until i get it right.


went so far as taking 3m blu-tape and marking center of factory rear sight on barrel for reference before i tapped out old sights and installed new ones with brass punch.



my guru(dr. nelson ford "the gunsmith") who did the action/trigger jobs on them just e mailed me and heres his quote as i am LMFAO...................



"just shoot the feeking spoon 3 times at 75yds and move the rear sight in the direction ya want the bullet to go"!



too damn funny! guy doesnt mince words.




sounds simple enough????????????????????????



will take pics for laughs on this upcoming task.



i hate 45/70's off the bench!



on these williams fire sights which my poor old eyes just LOVE, it is incredible how your eye picks up the (2) rear greens and the front red sight. night day difference and worth every penny.


windage =drift the dove tail


elevation has lil screw for uppy/downey adjustments.

[jyl]

Pictures? I like lever guns. Jeff Higgins doesn't care for them, but he doesn't know what he's talking about. :-)

[Jeff Higgins]

You are correct on the sights - drift the rear left to move point of impact left and vis versa. Try not to adjust the front - hopefully it can stay centered in the dovetail. If you do have to move it, adjustments are opposite that of the rear sight - i.e., to move point of impact left, drift it right.

Recoil is a problem with these, isn't it? I swear my Marlin '95 hurts more than my Ruger # 1 in .458 with full power loads. Weight and stock design are the culprits.

Anyway, in the face of that recoil, relatively low velocity (= barrel time), and two piece stock design, the single most important thing to do is to hang onto the damn thing. Sounds obvious, but I'm talking both hands - grab that forearm just like you will when shooting in the field. We don't shoot these like single piece stocked bolt or semi auto rifles, with one hand on the grip and the other back under the toe of the stock, squeezing a sandbag for elevation. Always hold that forearm - it's the only way to ensure consistent elevation. Even in the field, when resting it over a fencepost, stump, rock, backpack, whatever - grab that forearm. The idea is to have you intervening between it and any rest. That way you can use any rest, and maintain consistent elevation. This is very important on these rifles.

That obiously rules out anything like the Caldwell "Lead Sled" or any other such recoil absorbing/reducing contivances at the range. On these rifles, anything like that will change elevation. So, in other words - you just gotta suck it up and shoot it. No fun off the bench, but it has to be done. Keep some paper towels handy to wipe the snot, slobber, and earwax off the stock. Put a chin strap on your favorite cap, or staple it to your head. A strap around your head on the shooting glasses is a good idea, too. Otherwise, both are left hovering in front of your head every time you light one off...

[ODDJOB UNO]

Originally Posted by id10t

Drifting the sights... get some paper and draw a diagram. Front and rear sight make a line, goes way out to the target. which way to drift rear sight to have said line also contact bullet holes ... drift to the right to move holes to the right

I'd shoot at 25 to get your left/right mostly on, then move to 100 for vertical on the 45-70. I'd sight the 357 and 44 in to be dead on at 75 - little high at 50, little low at 100 (pushing it for 357, just on the edge for the 44)

A quick search shows that with you 1.5" high at 50 yards should put you close to dead on at 100 with the 357 and 44

hey thank you. any all info is great. all i want to do is get in there and get out ASAP.


(1) spoon always fun. well most times.

(2) spoons................could get testy.

(3) spoons.....................crap here we go on the "endless ammo " consumption road!

[Tim Hancock]

FWIW, I sometimes use the "depth gage" end my digital calipers to measure off the side of the frame/slide to the side of the rear sight and write it down then after shooting and note which way the sight needs to be drifted with my brass punch, I tap it over and re-measure to see that I did indeed move it and how far. It sometimes saves a few back and forth adjustments due to very tight dovetails that are difficult to judge how far they moved while tapping.

[ODDJOB UNO]

Originally Posted by Tim Hancock

FWIW, I sometimes use the "depth gage" end my digital calipers to measure off the side of the frame/slide to the side of the rear sight and write it down then after shooting and note which way the sight needs to be drifted with my brass punch, I tap it over and re-measure to see that I did indeed move it and how far. It sometimes saves a few back and forth adjustments due to very tight dovetails that are difficult to judge how far they moved while tapping.

perfect idea. the rears were a breeze to install.


the fronts were damn tight tolerances held. a lil filing here and there helped w/my jewelers file.


these are going to be at the very very max 200yd spoons. and thats pushing it due to barrel lengths.



.357/.38 for general porpoise(purpose) all around sidekick to the smith .357/.38's and just a fun camp spoon to make small kritters lives miserable. cheap shooting for wifey/kids/amigos


.44 all around camp/brush deer/anti-black bear compliment to 629's.


and the 45/70 ass whoooo-per for brush elk/uncle brownie bear/and general all around shoulder re-arranger. and the errant buffalo stampede/tera-dactyl/t-rex rampage.



just talked to my hunting peudner and wez gonna use his caldwell metal rifle sled on this and lock them down on the bench for the uberest of accuracy that any of these rounds can produce.

[Jeff Higgins]

That's the perfect way to do it, Tim. We can't be just arbitrarily knocking them back and forth with no reference. I see guys chasing them like that at the range all too often. Some of the better open sights even have their own scale on the base, and centerline on the blade permanently stamped or engraved into them.

[id10t]

Originally Posted by Tim Hancock

FWIW, I sometimes use the "depth gage" end my digital calipers to measure off the side of the frame/slide to the side of the rear sight and write it down then after shooting and note which way the sight needs to be drifted with my brass punch, I tap it over and re-measure to see that I did indeed move it and how far. It sometimes saves a few back and forth adjustments due to very tight dovetails that are difficult to judge how far they moved while tapping.

Heck with a bit of math you could probably figure out how much more you need to drift before firing again...

[ODDJOB UNO]

well as mentioned we marked "factory centerline" prior to removing oem sights. so thats are 1st reference point.

going to mark sight and mark barrel when completed so if they ever get pinged and moved either way.



damn i got ammo,got sled, got sandbags,got spoons,got tools,got caliper,got brand new auto sound reducing ear muffs(cabelas-$59.99) and wez ready to rock and roll.



only thing is..................TIME! that freeking "work" thang keeps getting in the way!


stay tuned as we will take pics of the "boo-foonary".

[Tim Hancock]

Originally Posted by id10t

Heck with a bit of math you could probably figure out how much more you need to drift before firing again...

Yep... BTDT, but usually cheat and just draw it on Autocad then zoom out and pan over to see the results.

I actually did this when making my Sevigny knock-off sights for my Glock. I knew the stock heights of the store bought front and rears, but I also knew they could be ordered with slightly taller or lower front sight posts...... I left mine tall then fired from a vice at 25yds. I then calculated how much additional material to mill off to put the rounds dead on at 25 yds. Worked perfect and resulted in slightly more accurate sights than had I bought the actual Sevigny sight for $85. (that said... an inch or two at 25 yds is not very critical for typical IDPA type shooting)

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by ODDJOB UNO

just talked to my hunting peudner and wez gonna use his caldwell metal rifle sled on this and lock them down on the bench for the uberest of accuracy that any of these rounds can produce.

Charles, you are not playing with your M1's, H&K's, M700's or anything like that. With the .45-70, you are dealing with significant recoil in a somewhat light rifle that has a great deal more barrel time than the other stuff you have been playing with. That all adds up to a rifle that is very sensitive to how it is held and what it is rested on. Like I mentioned in my first reply, the Lead Sled is a very bad idea. You will not get the same point of impact from it as you will from normal field positions when shooting a rifle like this. It may shoot smaller groups, and it will be much more comfortable, but it will not be zeroed when you are done unless you grab it in your own two hands and shoot it.

[dhoward]

Originally Posted by ODDJOB UNO

perfect idea. the rears were a breeze to install.


the fronts were damn tight tolerances held. a lil filing here and there helped w/my jewelers file.

Next time, stick 'em in the freezer for an hour.