Kubica seriously hurt in Rally

[stuartj]

Stijn

I compete in tarmac rally in AUS, and the situation here is much as Curt described in the US. Time, financial penalties, even disqualifications are imposed by organisers and police for traffic infringements while outside special stages. Tarmac rally involves lengthy closures of often major public roads and significant inconvenience to Joe Public. Relationships with police, and Govts, are vital.

Thats not to say it doesnt happen. But most competitors recognise the sport only exists on the good will of the public and go out of their way to be good motorsport citizens. The police close the roads for us to drive like loons- access to public highways can be turned off in a blink.

Even the big teams.

[svandamme]

That may be so, but AUS or US ain't Europe.

[Won]

Speaking of speeding in transit stages...



autosport.com - WRC News: Solberg's co-driver in surprise debut

Solberg's co-driver in surprise debut

By David Evans Sunday, February 13th 2011, 18:33 GMT

Petter Solberg, Solberg Citroen, Sweden 2011Petter Solberg's co-driver Chris Patterson says the knowledge that he would have to hand over the driving for the final stage of Rally Sweden did not affect Solberg's performance on the opening World Rally Championship round of the season today.

Northern Irishman Patterson was forced to switch seats before SS22 after Solberg was caught speeding on Friday afternoon.

Swedish law states that any driver caught doing 30km/h more than the legal limit receives a ban, but has 48 hours' grace before the ban begins. Solberg was caught at 112km/h in a area with a 80km/h limit. The ban began at 14.00 today.

"We knew that I was going to have to drive, but it didn't affect us during the event," said Patterson. "The team were talking to the rally organisers and the police to see if I could drive the road sections and Petter the stages, but, for insurance reasons, we didn't do it.

"We're rally drivers and we have to abide by the law the same as everybody else. Road safety is very important to us and there was never any question of us trying to avoid this ban, we were caught speeding and we accept the punishment fair and square."

The ban left Patterson competing at the highest level as a driver for the first time in his life. He was slowest - although only by two seconds - on the 2.5-mile Gustavsfors stage, which was also the WRC's first ever live television 'power stage'.

"We had a good gap over Sebastien Loeb going into the stage and we knew we had to average 60km/h or more," said Patterson, "and we managed that comfortably. I wasn't nervous. It was really good fun, what a way to make your debut: brand new Citroen DS3 WRC, proper snow stage and live television."

Patterson said there were no heroics from him.

"Petter remembered the bad bits in the stage, so he was calling what he remembered," he said. "We went very slowly in the bad bits and then accelerated hard in the fast sections. It really was good fun, but I've had messages from all over the world advising me to stick to the navigating!

"At the end of the day, we've come away from the event with fifth place and a good position on the road for the next event in Mexico. And we stayed ahead of Sebastien Loeb."

Although the length of Solberg's Swedish driving ban has not yet been determined, it is not expected to stretch into next year's event.

[stuartj]

Originally Posted by svandamme

That may be so, but AUS or US ain't Europe.

That is correct, at least IME.

However, regardless of the execution, these events run to FIA standards.

Edit- Worth pointing out also Stijn- Europe "aint Europe". EU notwithstanding, Europe is a collection of individual sovereign countries with different road laws, police forces, community standards and attitudes. Driving in petrol head motor crazy Italy is quite a different experience to driving in neighbouring Switzerland- a country which has just ended a 50 year ban on all motorsport. IME.

[slodave]

I like Europe for that. Do what you want, pay with your life, hey that's great, we don't care, don't even think of bringing lawsuits, 'cause you'll lose.

[stuartj]

Originally Posted by slodave

I like Europe for that. Do what you want, pay with your life, hey that's great, we don't care, don't even think of bringing lawsuits, 'cause you'll lose.

hey Dave- in a transport stage, rally cars are moving on normal roads, in normal conditions, with normal traffic and subejct to normal law. (how that is enofrced is the question)

Transport Stages join Special Stages and Service Parks. This accident occured on a Special Stage. Road is closed, drive it on pace notes as fast as you can.

[slodave]

Don't get me wrong, I hope he fully recovers, but it sounds like he may not.

I was also thinking about skiing.. When it says "closed" or "out of bounds", so what, you can still go for it....

[Geronimo '74]

True, the I'll sue you for millions 'cause your fart smells funny attitude, don't work here.

Originally Posted by slodave

Don't get me wrong, I hope he fully recovers, but it sounds like he may not.

I was also thinking about skiing.. When it says "closed" or "out of bounds", so what, you can still go for it....

For skiing, there are different areas.

On piste: Marked and prepared pistes.

On piste:Marked but unprepared.

Off piste: Unmarked and unpepared. (you don't want to get in trouble here, help is going to take longer to reach you)

Off piste: Forbidden areas. (get caught here, they confiscate your stuff and you get to pay a hefty fine!)

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by stuartj

That is correct, at least IME.

However, regardless of the execution, these events run to FIA standards.

Actually it's not the same, Curt says that speeding means a 17.5 time penalty...

Yet Solberg got caught speeding so badly he lost his drivers license, and he still managed to stay in the top times with only 1 m36 or so to the leader.

So unless Solberg's co-pilot is extremely good at driving, better then the WRC pilots are.. or there's different rules at play between Curt's event and Solbergs event. And as such that 17.5 minutes is not a FIA rule, Solberg didn't get that penalty.

[CurtEgerer]

Originally Posted by svandamme

Curt, Rallying in the US is not comparable to that in Europe.

Wow, I didn't even know there was rallying in Europe, but I just attended my 1st rally 32 years ago so I'm still learning As you know, the United States was one of the original 13 rounds of the WRC (there have been several WRC rounds here, including the last ever Group B rally) so we do know a couple of things about the sport.

Nobody is denying that speeding sometimes occurs on transits. It happens here too (see here for the most infamous example of all - The Midnight Ride of Sandro Munari.) Competitors cheat in all sports, not just rallying. The FIA/WRC, like Rally America, has both monetary and time penalties although they are assessed differently. These are the FIA/WRC rules:



The supplemental regs at any WRC event can add to these penalties. In Sweden, this was Solberg's penalty (in addition to dropping to 5th place because he was prohibited from driving the last stage):

CofC Decision No 4.


.

[yellowperil]

I can't imagine Kimi Raikkenon joined the euro rally circuit to drive around at legal speeds.

[svandamme]

Curt, The 17.5 minute penalty.. is that FIA , or not?
Would Solberg's co-pilot been able to finish withing 1 and a half minutes of the rally winner if that were a FIA rule, or not?

Who's rule is the 17.5 minute penalty? Rally America's? If so, that prooves my point, that Rallying in America has a completely different penalty system,
one that, if it were applied in Europe as well, would change the speeding inbetween stages dramatically.

But untill that 's the case... You cannot argue that rallying in the US, is with the same mindset towards speeding inbetween stages as it is in Europe.

The COFC decision #4 only mentions a 800 euro fine.. The rest is because his co-pilot isn't a pilot for a living...
An 800 euro fine is not even a set of tires,
it's but a slap on the wrist by the organisation.
Not even a time penalty... In a competitive sport that's a biiiiiiig difference from having been given 17.5 minutes penalty as you say you would get if you were speeding in America.
They would simply have laughed about it if it weren't for the lost drivers license.

The fact that he lost his drivers license, he'll call that "Bad luck", in most countries other then Sweden,
112 in an 80 would have been a 150 euro speeding ticket, and Solberg would have kept his license.

[stuartj]

Originally Posted by yellowperil

I can't imagine Kimi Raikkenon joined the euro rally circuit to drive around at legal speeds.

Nonetheless.

Tiger walks to the next hole. Ahem.

[CurtEgerer]

Originally Posted by svandamme

Curt, The 17.5 minute penalty.. is that FIA , or not?
Would Solberg's co-pilot been able to finish withing 1 and a half minutes of the rally winner if that were a FIA rule, or not?

Who's rule is the 17.5 minute penalty? Rally America's? If so, that prooves my point, that Rallying in America has a completely different penalty system,
one that, if it were applied in Europe as well, would change the speeding inbetween stages dramatically. .

Stijn - I think I have confused the issue by including the RA Regulation. It does not apply to WRC at all. And I agree, WRC gives you only a slap on the hand for your 1st speeding infraction - the 2nd and 3rd ... not so much.

But I don't understand your logic about speeding at all As has been pointed out, there is absolutely no reason for a competitor to speed on a Transit Stage, no matter what country the rally is in or who is setting the rules. The organizer sets a prescribed amount of time - taking into account speed limits, traffic, etc. - to transit from the finish of each Special Stage to the start of the next Special Stage. Why would one speed? When you get there, you just sit in a big line waiting to enter the time control at the prescribed time for your car. Getting there sooner is of no advantage.

The only reason Solberg was speeding in this instance was they were making repairs to his car at the service parc and they ran late. By the time he got going, there was no way for him to get to the start control on time. About the only other reason to speed would be if you got lost on the transit.

Maybe I'm missing your point entirely?

[VFR750]

Robert pranged his car on the wall first. He hurt his chances for a win, possibly would have gotten taged for speeding. Not bolting the armco together is a crime. He would have been ok if the armco wasn't there and went off the drop and hit trees. I'm sadden that there is no discussion about how the locals created such a dangerous situation, and no good explaination as to how it is possible that the armco wasn't bolted properly. $10 in botls/nuts anyone?

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by CurtEgerer

Stijn - I think I have confused the issue by including the RA Regulation. It does not apply to WRC at all. And I agree, WRC gives you only a slap on the hand for your 1st speeding infraction - the 2nd and 3rd ... not so much.

And there is the big issue, how much penalty does a driver in WRC get if he's late for his start?If i'm not mistaken, that's a time penalty, right?
how much penalty does he get for 1st speeding ?

Which penalty weighs more for somebody who is competing for the win?
Time? or a financial slap on the wrist?

Obviously Solberg took it a bit to far , and lost his license, something that completely upset's the balance of things... bad luck.

Originally Posted by CurtEgerer

But I don't understand your logic about speeding at all As has been pointed out, there is absolutely no reason for a competitor to speed on a Transit Stage, no matter what country the rally is in or who is setting the rules. The organizer sets a prescribed amount of time - taking into account speed limits, traffic, etc. - to transit from the finish of each Special Stage to the start of the next Special Stage. Why would one speed? When you get there, you just sit in a big line waiting to enter the time control at the prescribed time for your car. Getting there sooner is of no advantage.

Well you say that, but the reality is proving there is a reason,Solberg a WRC pilot obviously thinks you are dead wrong.. because he found a reason.

Originally Posted by CurtEgerer

The only reason Solberg was speeding in this instance was they were making repairs to his car at the service parc and they ran late. By the time he got going, there was no way for him to get to the start control on time. About the only other reason to speed would be if you got lost on the transit.

again, there you go, there's the reason. Solberg says your wrong.
800 euro fine, or time penalty for being late, which is worse ?

Originally Posted by CurtEgerer

Maybe I'm missing your point entirely?

yes you are, you even wrote it down yourself and you missed it.
They do have reasons to speed because sometimes they are late.

And FIA does not penalize speeding as critically as it penalizes being late.
One could say that FIA prefers you to speed in between stages rather then being late. FIA off course has to keep things organized, also has to make sure the competition stays exiting for the fans, viewers, advertisers...

You keep looking at it from your point of view, but yours is not the same as Solbergs, Fia's, or Europe's point of view.

[stuartj]

Originally Posted by VFR750

Robert pranged his car on the wall first. He hurt his chances for a win, possibly would have gotten taged for speeding. Not bolting the armco together is a crime. He would have been ok if the armco wasn't there and went off the drop and hit trees. I'm sadden that there is no discussion about how the locals created such a dangerous situation, and no good explaination as to how it is possible that the armco wasn't bolted properly. $10 in botls/nuts anyone?

Ive no idea what you mean, but the crash occurred in Special Stage. No one gets pinged for speeding in a SS. Speeding is the whole idea.

The SS would have been inspected in the days and hours leading up to road closure. and was obviously judged to be meet standard. Rally Spec Stages run over many miles of road. There is one here that is 56km long. It is not possible to remove every hazard, especially roadside. Thats the nature of rallying.

He would have been ok if the armco wasn't there and went off the drop and hit trees. Really?

[CurtEgerer]

I'm beginning to wonder if Stuart and I and a couple of others are the only ones in this thread who understand the basic rules of stage rallying. Wow

Stijn - I think we're making progress! We have agreed that the only reasons to speed/cheat on transits are mechanical problems causing delays and getting lost. These are very rare instances, yet you imply that it is common place for rally cars in Europe to speed/cheat on the transit stages and this somehow makes European rallying better. Again, the basic rules are exactly the same for all rallies. Are you saying that rally crews in Europe have more mechanical problems and get lost more often so they need to cheat more often by speeding to make their start controls on time?

As far as fixing the guardrail, why stop there? Wouldn't the organizers also have to wrap all the trees with soft impact barriers, install guardrails where they were missing, replace those pipe rails on the bridges, wrap the building corners on the edge of the road, wrap the utility poles, etc. If Kubica had hit a utility pole or tree, he'd probably be dead rather than injured. This isn't circuit racing on a safe purpose-built track. It's dangerous and all the participants understand that fact.

The last rally I was in was on ice-covered roads (with non-studded tires) with 1000's of large trees, utility poles, mail boxes, 1-lane bridges and other objects lining the edges of the roads. Every road was like this for 2 days. Using some people's logic, the organizers should have salted the roads and installed proper guardrails so we were safe.

Is there anything that looks even remotely safe about this .....

[yellowperil]

That looks about right.

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by CurtEgerer

Stijn - I think we're making progress! We have agreed that the only reasons to speed/cheat on transits are mechanical problems causing delays and getting lost.

These are very rare instances, yet you imply that it is common place for rally cars in Europe to speed/cheat on the transit stages and this somehow makes European rallying better.

I never argued it makes European rallying better.

I simply made the point that it's not safe to assume that in Europe they only drife fast on the stages, when in reality they do speed if
A they have a need to (competing for rank and late for the start)
B they think they can get away with it.

Originally Posted by CurtEgerer

Again, the basic rules are exactly the same for all rallies.

You're contradicting your own information , once more

The basic rules are obviously not the same, you told me that America Rally rules stipulate a 17,5 minute time penalty, something which is not applied in Europe.. as proven by Solberg.
If rally rules were the same for all rally's, then Solberg would have had at least 17.5 minutes slapped to his time.

Either you admit to having given me faulty information, and there is no such thing as a 17.5 minute penalty in US rallies..
Or you admit to being wrong about the rules being the same across all rallies.

You cannot have it both ways.

Originally Posted by CurtEgerer

Are you saying that rally crews in Europe have more mechanical problems and get lost more often so they need to cheat more often by speeding to make their start controls on time?

Nope, i'm just saying they can get away with it (B) more, so if (A) occurs they don't think twice about it.