Your thoughts on Skip barber ?

[Deschodt]

I have an opportunity to attend a 2 day car control class @ skip barber at Sebring, next week. It's not too expensive (gift from my wife), and closer to home than other venues...

Apparently it's on Miata Cup cars, there are very few people enrolled, so it would be good one on one instruction. It involves lots of skid pad, brutal lane changes, some auto-x type stuff...

I'm hesitating based on the content, I hope it's not "designed for 16 year olds who just got their license" . I have roughly 12+ years of 3 or 4 track days a year, most of them in an old 911 with no ABS, and while I'm certainly not God's gift to racing (far from it), I have more experience with threshold braking, weight transfer, heel and toe than your average Corolla driver...

On the flip side, DEs are not very good at teaching you "car control" per se, since the emphasis is on "the line", maintaining control and not putting a wheel off or God forbid spin the car ( & get black flagged)...

I was thinking that putting a miata cup car sideways for a couple of days might be fun, but I HATE autoX type courses, and not sure how useful the rest of the program will be. I'm sure I'll learn something, don't get me wrong, just looking for bang for the buck. I can do 5 Driver Ed events for the same money ;-) Or maybe a Rally school in Ocala, I think.. Sideways all the time... Opinions on Skip BArber, the car control class, that sort of stuff ??

Thx !

[widgeon13]

I used to send my sales force to the one day program at Skip Barber at Lime Rock. Had the company president attend a session as well. Everyone enjoyed it and learned a lot. I also had customers attend as well.

If there aren't many people they will actually tailor the program to your needs. Give them a call to discuss it. I found them to be very customer friendly. If you haven't gone to a driving school I think you will be impressed and learn quite a bit. The hands on stuff is really good. I had also done a fair number of DE days.

It's not a racing program if that is what you want. My recommendation as I said is to call them and discuss. I bet if you decide to go with another SB program they would gladly switch your reservation.

[p911dad]

Deschodt, I took the Skip Barber High Perf. 1 day course at Lime Rock 2 years ago, courtesy of our oldest son. It was a total blast, and I learned a lot. It was not the car control course, which I am not really familiar with, but if it's anything like the course I took, it should be fun.
The HP course took all day and we stayed late. The cars were new 911's, new Caymans and a couple of BMWs, maybe 335s, along with 1 Miata for the skidpad.
The course as I recall consisted of an hour of classroom early. Then a whole bunch of fast lane changes using remote stoplights on a short course(accelerate to the max in one of 3 lanes, and the instructor would then trigger the lights, which was hairy til you got the hang of it. We had 911s, Caymans and a BMW.
Then on to the flooded skid pad in a Miata with slick rear tires and good fronts, the whole thing on a 400' circle of smooth pavement done under 30 mph. What a total awakening on drifting a car. The instructor demonstrated, then we each did about 10 or 15 laps, depending on the student.
Then, off to the auto x track in Caymans, and the students were split into 3 teams of 4, with an instructor in the car offering advice for each. We each did LeMans starts and our teams competed against the clock. Of course our team won(!). Two teams did memorable spins in turn 1, which of course totally screwed them.
Then out to the race track to do hot laps. You go in groups of 3 cars following a Miata Cup. Each lap you switch off the #1 following car so everyone gets a some good instruction. You are solo here. I drew the BMW and it was a little slower than the Caymans and 911s. Maybe my technique. We did that for maybe 1 1/2 hours.
We ended up with the instructors each taking a student in 911s or Caymans and together did a race of about 1/2 hour around Lime Rock. After this demonstration I came to the realization I would never be a race driver(getting all that expensive sheet metal so close had something to do with it). I was in a Cayman and we held off the 911s for about 1 lap, then it was all over. Nothing but 911 taillights after that.
My overall impression of Skip Barber was excellent with great instructors, and first rate equipment. I took away a lot. I would do it again if I had a chance.

[Cdnone1]

It sounds like your DE's suck.
That being said I can't think of many other things I would rather do than spend 2 days in a car at a track with professional instruction and have the wife not only give me permission but pay for it!
Go and have a great time, there is always something to learn or experience.
Steve

[Gretch]

I took the three day course in dodge formula cars at Moroso in West Palm.

It was, without a doubt, the most fun one could have with one's pants on...

It was intense and rapidly escalated the skill requirements. Not everyone in the class passed, and a couple of cars went home in a bag.

Moroso is an easy course............ except for the left hook at the end of the straightaway.

Fun time, I would do it again in a heart beat.

[DanielDudley]

More stick time is good.

[jerryw]

I did both the car control course and racing school at Laguna. Even if you you have great control now the course and excersizes will really hone them. (Each class was with my son - car control at 16 for his license and then the race school when he graduated HS). As others have said great, professional instruction with the ability to tailor to your experience and needs.

[Z-man]

I cut my teeth autocrossing before I delved into DE's. Also did a car control clinic with my PCA region. Over the years, I focused more on DE's, but still did autocross.

Now, as an instructor in DE (and AX), I truly see the benefits of getting involved with autocross. I can typically tell if my DE student has any autocross experience based on how comfortable he is out on the track - how much slip angle he uses, and how he reacts when the car is sliding. And yes, the former autocrossers have much better car control skills, and understand turn-in, apex, and track-out much better than a driver who has never done AX.

A couple of years ago, I took a friend out for a session who was a solo DE driver out at The Glen. His comments on my driving compared to a mutual instructor friend was, "While the other guy is faster (the mutual friend drove a GT3 vs. my 944S2), you are more fun because you make the car slide more through the corners!" I guess use more throttle steering than the GT3 driver uses.

My point is -- autocross is a terrific tool to learn car control. If may sound boring, and you are out there a whole day for just 4-6 runs, but those runs can be pretty intense.

As for Skippy's car control school? I've never been, but it sounds to me like that would be a blast. Then again, any opportunity to throw a car around a skidpad and learn sounds like fun the me!

Just my $0.42,
-Z-man.

[Deschodt]

Good points, but the crux of the problem for me is that specific class content, the ones mentioned above are not the same class.... I'm worried it's more geared towards new drivers than what *I* have in mind when I say car control. It's also on spec miatas, not fancier exotics, I don't mind, but that and the price points towards a lower level class... I'm SURE I can learn *something* even in that situation, but again, bang for the buck.... My track buddy says I'd be better off doing a racing school and go vintage racing with him ;-)

I'll call them again and discuss the syllabus... There's also that Rally school, a little further away, same price... I can guarantee I'd like that, it's the driving sideways that interests me right now !

As for "my DE's sucking", I don't think that's a fair assessment. I've been at many in California, PCA and private - remember tracquest?, now Florida suncoast PCA... I would not say that DEs are just not slanted towards letting you get out of control... The name of the game is learning to drive safely on a track. Get out of shape twice and you are out... That's fair enough, they got a specific goal and insurance issues to contend with...

My issue is that I'd like to get out of shape all day and see what that feels like, up to what slide angle can I go and catch it..... Up til now I've caught all my slides, had a few tank slappers but never really spun (except that one time at sears point where there was mud on the track and I missed concrete barriers by 2"). Where else can I cross the line so I can deal with it better when it happens.... ;-)

[Z-man]

Greg: first off, I'm not saying your DE's suck. I don't know you, your skills, or how you drive on the track.

Second -- I think the Skippy school you are currently enrolled in will most likely give you more opportunities to go sideways than the rally school, and what you learn there will be more applicable on the track.

Third - as an instructor, one thing I always strive to do is to learn -- even from my students! I suspect you have the same attitude towards driving, and as such, what you put into the class you will get out of it.

-Z-man.

[Zeke]

Wayne did SB, ask him.

[Deschodt]

Originally Posted by Z-man

Greg: first off, I'm not saying your DE's suck. -Z-man.

Wasn't you Z-man. it was a few posts above.. No biggie, just making the point that DEs are generally about staying in control ;-)

[jpachard]

Having worked at Skip Barber as their lead engineer I can give you some good insight.

You will have a great time and learn a bunch. While this class might not be similar to how it's done in PCA, the different approach will give you some great learning. The cars are very well set up and be prepared for a lot of learning, both in the car and in the classroom.

Do you know who the instructors are?

Cheers, James

[Deschodt]

Well, looks like I'm not going after all... but Skip Barber has won a customer anyway

The person I talked to (Evan) was *very* honest, friendly and straighforward with me. Sure I'd learn a thing or 2, who wouldn't, but he agreed with me that based on my experience and goals, this particular class probably was not the best suited for me. Unfortunately that's all there is at Sebring before they close for the season, but he didn't try to push things...

So it's probably Road Atlanta for me instead, with the "advanced" car control class or the 3 day racing class, to be decided (way more skidpad on the advanced) but I gotta set that up later with a plane ticket and a longer vacation...

Kudos to them for the accurate assessment and honesty... Like a said, class act !
So for now I'm gonna put some money in my CaymanS (baffled and extended oil sump) and go back to a DE without fear of blowing her up ;-)