Glock Leg and now, new and improved Glock Butt

[masraum]

Ouch!

SAFETY WARNING! Worn Leather Holsters Can Cause Accidental Discharges!

Me being the passenger, I rotated my torso to the left to fasten my seatbelt like I always do. When I straightened again, my Glock 19 discharged, blowing a 9mm hole through my pants, underwear, the leather seat and bottom of the car’s door frame.

This particular holster, Galco JAK202 Slide Belt Holster, carries the pistol outside the waistband, but inside the belt. The belt slides through slots in the outer side of the holster.

The problem stemmed from the leather on the inner side of the holster getting soft. A crease formed, which eventually was large enough to extend beyond the trigger.

Leather Holster AD 02 by ITS Tactical, on Flickr


Leather Holster AD 01 by ITS Tactical, on Flickr

[Rick Lee]

Looks like a Glock 23. I just got one of those and it fits perfectly into the same Galco Stow-n-Go holster as my SIG P239. I do have another non-Galco holster that looks like the one in that photo, but I can't imagine it ever deforming that way. My Galco more than covers the whole trigger guard. I'm not worried about this happening at all. Though I did ride 20 miles today with the Glock in my right jacket pocket and, when I got home, realized that pocket had been unzipped the whole time.

[mossguy]

The Glock may not be safe but it's ugly.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by mossguy

The Glock may not be safe but it's ugly.

Exactly. The bad answer to the question that never should have been asked.

They seem to be a panacea for the somewhat disinterested and untrained, and particularly for police departments not willing to budget for proper training and enough ammunition to keep their cops proficient with more "complicated" safety and fire control systems.

This kind of nonsense - this new spate of accidental discharges - has one common theme. Glock. I hate the damn things. One of the worst ideas in firearms to ever come down the pike. All it ever had (and still has) going for it was timing - it was the "right" gun at the "right" time, introducing a vastly reduced level of commitment to its purchasers, who have somehow lost sight of the commitment required to carry a sidearm. They can get away with it with less training and less practice than ever before, and the Glock accommodates that. Or so they think...

[Rick Lee]

Jeff, as a longtime reluctant and new Glock owner, I have to respectfully disagree. Your history and reasoning might be correct. Though lack of training is a problem, no matter the service weapon. And I don't think a Glock would be my first choice if I were a cop and got to choose my service weapon. But it's a pretty good bang for the buck. If you're already a lifelong gun person and a safety fanatic as I am, I don't see how a Glock is unsafe. The only special rule with these is that you have to keep the trigger guard covered at all times. It's not something you can thrown in the side pocket of your cargo pants. And you can't skimp on the proper holster or holstering. Galco is not cheap and this holster looks like a bad choice for a DAO gun with a 4.5 lbs. trigger on all shots. Though it's my main carry gun while my two carry SIG's are being refinished, I wouldn't think about carrying it near a seatbelt or anything that could cramp the position. It goes in the small of my back, inside the waistband when I walk, in the door pocket when I drive and in my tank bag or jacket pocket when I ride.

Again, I was Glock-reluctant for a looonng time. Took me a good 15 yrs. to warm up to them. But I got one and fell in love. It's reliable, accurate, cheap and expendable.

My first trip to the range with my first Glock.

I've become a huge Glock fan.

[ODDJOB UNO]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Exactly. The bad answer to the question that never should have been asked.

They seem to be a panacea for the somewhat disinterested and untrained, and particularly for police departments not willing to budget for proper training and enough ammunition to keep their cops proficient with more "complicated" safety and fire control systems.

This kind of nonsense - this new spate of accidental discharges - has one common theme. Glock. I hate the damn things. One of the worst ideas in firearms to ever come down the pike. All it ever had (and still has) going for it was timing - it was the "right" gun at the "right" time, introducing a vastly reduced level of commitment to its purchasers, who have somehow lost sight of the commitment required to carry a sidearm. They can get away with it with less training and less practice than ever before, and the Glock accommodates that. Or so they think...

and that kiddies is what we call an "ACCIDENTAL DISCHARGE" and the wonderful thing about "AD'S" if you and all around you survive........................you will NEVER LET IT HAPPEN AGAIN!



and thats why........................since i aint a cop, and i am fast on my feet all damn day and night climbing here there everywhere in- out vehicles/planes/ladders/stairwells/ etc etc. that i FIRMLY BELIEVE IN DECOCKERS or the 1911 DESIGN!


i also HATE GLOCKS for this exact reason. you couldnt pay me to own one/rent one/steal one/borrow one.


you are a very lucky man that it didnt blow yer azz off, shoot anyone else let alone, being sued into the stone age and pushing a freeking grocery cart with martini stickers on it for the rest of yer life! let alone adding insult to injury and being arrested for unlawful discharge in the city limits.


once again...............i HATE LEATHER of any and all kinds no matter who the feek makes it. had you had a serpa/bianchi/uncle mikes holster, the likelihood of this happening is about like the sun coming up in the west.


bottomline.................YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT ROUND! YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR HOLSTER MAINTENANCE!


had you shot my car or truck i would have KICKED YER AZZ!



sorry for railing on yer azz! but i was raised with a army sarg as a father who carried a m-1 carbine and a .45 for 5years in combat. and there is no such thing as an accident! its called STOOOOO_PIDITY on yer PART!


had that occurred at ANY RANGE ANYWHERE yer azz would have been toast and the rangemaster would have crawled up yer azz and DIED!



sell that gawd damn POS glock and get something SAFE! before ya kill yerself or someone else!



dont like my railing????????? well at least you and others might learn from yer mistake!


i have no sympathy! especially when the number of AD's(STOO-PID HUMANS) continue to shoot them selves and others "accidentally" with these POS GLOCKS!


it ONLY TAKES ONE (1) and you aint no kat with 9 lives!


good luck and hope ya learned yer lesson !



the only holsters i APPROVE OF:


bianchi

blackhawk serpa

uncle mikes


PERIOD!



by the way its HK USPC 9mm month. its in a carbon fiber serpa holster as i write, with the freeking/fugging DECOCKER IN THE SAFE POSITION!

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by ODDJOB UNO

blackhawk serpa

uncle mikes


PERIOD!



by the way its HK USPC 9mm month. its in a carbon fiber serpa holster as i write, with the freeking/fugging DECOCKER IN THE SAFE POSITION!

This my Blackhawk Serpa with a SIG P220 in it. But then the SIG has a 10.5 trigger pull on DA. So likelihood of such an AD is about nil.

OddJob, you might know about an AD that hit someone at Shooter's World about two yrs. ago. The guy was an instructor and practicing draws on the range. He didn't notice that his front sight had caught his shirt upon reholstering. When he drew the next time, the shirt yanked the gun out of his hand. He'd have been fine letting it drop to the ground, but he tried to catch it and hit the trigger. That one didn't land innocently in the floor or wall either.

[ODDJOB UNO]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

This my Blackhawk Serpa with a SIG P220 in it. But then the SIG has a 10.5 trigger pull on DA. So likelihood of such an AD is about nil.

OddJob, you might know about an AD that hit someone at Shooter's World about two yrs. ago. The guy was an instructor and practicing draws on the range. He didn't notice that his front sight had caught his shirt upon reholstering. When he drew the next time, the shirt yanked the gun out of his hand. He'd have been fine letting it drop to the ground, but he tried to catch it and hit the trigger. That one didn't land innocently in the floor or wall either.

yeah i heard about it. hearing about (1) makes me shiver. hearing about stoopid glock stunts multiple times just cements the fact the average person does NOT know how to control one safely!



and thats why HK and others drop their weapons from 3 story buildings LOADED/SAFETY OFF to test how their systems work. basically that simulates a very hard parachute landing.

all my six shooter holsters have a strap across hammer. all of my semi autos are a positive CLICK TYPE or a STRAP ACROSS REAR.



you cannot spend enough on a HOLSTER!



here in az. leather will go to hell from heat/sweat/humidity/rain/dust etc.




for hunting...................a bianchi M-9 flap covered holster for my 6 shooters or my semi autos. bouncing around on a dirty bike/quad/jeep etc. i want positive weapon security!


yes i have quite the holster collection. and they aint cheap. and the ONLY time i dropped a spoon was from a leather holster(and that was literally POO-CANNED!). and it scared the living POO outta me and feeked up the finish also on the spoon, to add insult! man i was pissed. that damn holster was not even a year old and had stretched from sweat hot cold in/out etc.



screw leather!




thinking now on my holster collection NOT ONE doesnt have a strap to secure or a positive detent.



the older i get..................the more i ENJOY LIFE and suffer no FOOLS!

[ODDJOB UNO]

p.s mr rickster...................its time for some METZLER ENDURO TIRES!

[Rick Lee]

BTW, I just got the same kind of Blackhawk Serpa holster for my Glock. You can drop a Glock on the concrete too and not worry about it going off.....unless you try to catch it. Modern handguns are very safe. Humans are the problem.

[ODDJOB UNO]

man i love my serpas. got the carbon fiber zoomy editions. for the hk45c tactical. hk uspc 9mm. also got a left hand(wrong hand) one for my kid. ditched the paddle crap and just use a wilderness nylon riggers belt. very light, very positive going home, simple fast release. very happy with their products.



and very simple buckling seat belt in vehicle when on and releasing it .



actually got a couple of my bianchis off of opticsplanet.com as they were the cheapest around. bianchi holsters aint cheap very often anywhere.

[sc_rufctr]

Maybe the owner should have bought a better holster. Or replaced it when it was worn.

Meanwhile... On my VW the fuel lines run under the car near that area.
Of course it would be a million to one shot but who knows.

[Jim Bremner]

Seems Like a GOOD place to use this!

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by ODDJOB UNO

the only holsters i APPROVE OF:

bianchi

blackhawk serpa

uncle mikes

PERIOD!

As safety conscious as you are, I am surprised you approve of the Serpa. A holster that puts "anything" inside/near the trigger guard is a bad idea (and a bad design) IMO. There have been several reported AD's with them, and a lot of instructors won't allow them on their course/ranges.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by Eric Coffey

As safety conscious as you are, I am surprised you approve of the Serpa. A holster that puts "anything" inside/near the trigger guard is a bad idea (and a bad design) IMO. There have been several reported AD's with them, and a lot of instructors won't allow them on their course/ranges.

IIRC, the AD's with the Serpa's were upon unholstering. When you depress the release button with your index finger and pull the gun out fast, it's possible for your index finger, with pressure still applied, to land on the trigger. But then I've never been in a gunfight, and hope, if it ever happens, it's not a quick-draw scenario. When holstered, I don't see how the retention notch could touch the trigger, since the rest of the holster is sized to keep the front of the trigger guard from moving forward.

I did see another cool retention holster the other day with the thumb-activated release button. That might be safer. But trigger discipline is always key.

[Rick Lee]

This is how mine looks in its Galco. Trigger is totally covered.



And in the Serpa. FWIW, I tried a quick release with this, keeping pressure on my right index finger and it landed on the frame, above the trigger. Seems you'd have to be really clumsy to cause an AD this way.



Random 355 parked in the handicapped spot at Scottsdale Gun Club the other day.

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

IIRC, the AD's with the Serpa's were upon unholstering. When you depress the release button with your index finger and pull the gun out fast, it's possible for your index finger, with pressure still applied, to land on the trigger.

Yep, I believe that is the primary concern, especially in high-stress situations. Just the fact that it is possible (however remote) is a deal breaker for me.

From a quick google search:
The Serpa Holster - Why We Don't Allow Them In Class
Review: Blackhawk SERPA leg holster
Blackhawk Serpa Holster - Wilson Tactical Training, LLC.

[Eric Coffey]

[hi-jack]

Here's a good write-up/review on the Serpa from someone who knows his stuff:

Over the last year, I have developed some serious concerns with the Blackhawk Serpa Active Retention holster design. Various persons have brought these concerns to the attention of Blackhawk on several occasions and Blackhawk has chosen to ignore these very real issues.

The ‘Serpa Active Retention’ design consists of a plastic L-shaped component which functions as the release button [from the outside of the holster] and as the lock [which engages inside the trigger guard]. The short leg of the L-shaped lever pivots inward [toward the pistol], while the locking tab pivots outward to release the pistol from the holster.

According to the Blackhawk website, ”The release is made using your normal drawing motion, with the trigger finger beside the holster body. … As your trigger finger naturally comes to rest on the SERPA lock’s release mechanism, simply push the mechanism as you draw the weapon and it releases the gun for a smooth, fast draw.”

While Blackhawk may intend for the end-user to apply inboard pressure with the flat of the index finger, under stress, shooters tend to push the button with the tip of their index finger. After all, this is the manner in which most people have the most repetitions pushing buttons such as keys on a keypad or phone or ringing doorbells. When the finger pushes in on the release button and the user initiates the upward motion of the drawstroke, the finger tends to stay in motion and as the trigger guard clears the holster, the finger enters the trigger guard and contacts the trigger, with possibly tragic results.

I am aware of two instances where trained personnel have shot themselves using this holster in conjunction with Glock pistols. In August of 2004, a situation occurred with a live weapon that resulted in the shooter losing a 10cm piece of her femur. The other occurred with nonlethal training ammunitions in a force-on-force event in April of 2005. The impact of the NLTA was in the same area as the actual gunshot wound previously mentioned.

Following each of these events, Blackhawk was contacted and advised of the problems observed and concerns raised. In the first instance, they claimed that they were unaware of any previous issues with the design and insisted that the design had been ‘thoroughly tested by law enforcement and military personnel’.

After the second event, they were contacted by at least two people. Again, they stated that they were unaware of any concerns and had heard nothing similar from any sources.

If this were not disturbing enough, in October 2005, while assisting with a class in Casa Grande, AZ, additional concerns surfaced. During a force-on-force evolution, when a student attempted to draw an NLTA-modified Glock 17 from his Blackhawk Serpa holster, he was unable to free the gun from the holster.

In fact, the gun was so tightly held in the holster that, with one person applying both hands to the release button and another person applying two hands to the pistol, the gun could not be freed. Upon inspection, a small piece of gravel, approximately the size of the head of a pin, had managed to work itself into the Serpa release button and wedge the lock in place.

While trying to effect a release of the pistol from the holster, the entire holster popped off of the belt. The three screws that attach the holster body to the belt plate simply slipped through the tracks in the belt plate without apparent damage. Of what use is a retention holster that does not keep the gun on the belt?

In my opinion, the Blackhawk Serpa Active Retention holster is a severely flawed design. It offers the theoretical advantage of security while, in reality, offering none. It does not hold up to the rigors of realistic training. It accentuates the possibility of an unintentional discharge. It is unsafe.

If you, or anyone known to you, are currently using one of these holsters, please reconsider.

Sincerely,

Paul Gomez
225.921.5900

[/hi-jack]

[James Brown]

My 2 glocks are like my 1911, mag in, NO round in the chamber. I can jack one in pretty fast if needed.

[Rick Lee]

Sorry. I ain't buying it. Everything is prone to some kind of freak, one-in-a-million failure. That Galco in the first post included, though there's no excuse for continuing to use a holster in that condition. Trigger discipline can prevent every AD and ND. Getting gravel in the release mechanism sucks. But you can also fall in the mud, get mud in your barrel and then be blinded when it explodes after you fire a shot. Federal is pretty reputable ammo and they have a major recall going on now due to some batches getting double the prescribed propellant charge. Gotta be careful out there.