Carbon fiber and composite question.

[Zeke]

I want to cast a solid object the size of a tennis ball that has some weight to it. I will need to machine the raw casting. I can't find any links to either the process or the supplies. Preferably the end product would polish and be black.

It needs to have a decent Rockwell similar to light to medium weight metals. If that's too vague, I have seen some similar products done in brass and AL for the difference in weight vs. mass.

Not much done in composite. Maybe there's a reason?

[island911]

machined CF isn't going to polish. and yeah, rather vague there. "a decent Rockwell similar to light to medium weight metals."

..and in general, machining CF isn't good

[bleucamaro]

What is the design objective for this part, and why are you wanting to consider composites? Are you looking for a specific weight, strength (tensile, shear or compressive), conductivity, aesthetics, hardness, surface finish???

When you break it down, "composites" just means more than one material. Carbon fiber, like fiberglass is just a reinforcement material that provides tensile strength, like re-bar in reinforced concrete. So, when you say you want a solid sphere, from composites, why not just a ball of resin?

Also, why do you want it cast or injection molded? If you went with metal, you could bond 2 or more pieces of plate together then machine them into a sphere, same with wood or other plastics.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by milt

I want to cast a solid object the size of a tennis ball that has some weight to it. I will need to machine the raw casting. I can't find any links to either the process or the supplies. Preferably the end product would polish and be black.

It needs to have a decent Rockwell similar to light to medium weight metals. If that's too vague, I have seen some similar products done in brass and AL for the difference in weight vs. mass.

Not much done in composite. Maybe there's a reason?

Sounds like a pool ball. Ask Paul.

There are a good number of castable resins out there with all sorts of properties. As a general rule of thumb, the harder they get the more brittle they get. The harder they get, the better they will finish.

Any introduction of another material - to make it a "composite" will both increase strength and mess with the surface finish. We use milled glass fiber, powdered metals, and other materials, depending on what we are after. Surface finish is never high on our list with these added materials. The problems arise when you machine them, and keep exposing the "dry" centers of whatever material that may be; it finishes different than the surrounding resin.

Another option to casting your own blank is to simply buy a solid material with the properties you are looking for. If you are going to finish machine anyway, buy a chunk of "plastic" and whittle away. You would be astounded at just what is available today.

So, whatcha up to?

[willtel]

What about something like this?

What is Forged Composite: A New Way of Using Carbon Fiber | Carbon Fiber Gear

[Zeke]

Sent a PM to blue. Jeff, I might do the same.
island, it doesn't have to be carbon fiber per se, but I suspect I need strong filler to attain the properties of the metals mentioned. It very well may end up being powered metal in epoxy.

I should just buy some JB Weld in bulk.

Yeah, willtel, that's good. I'm sure Calloway will let me in on this.

[island911]

Originally Posted by milt

..., but I suspect I need strong filler to attain the properties of the metals mentioned. ...

The thing is, metals are isotropic materials, whereas any fiber-reinforced materials are anisotropic, or quasi-isotropic at best.

Material choice is a big part of the performance of so many designs. If you just 'throw some filler at it' you'll likely not get what you are expecting (metal like performance)

fwiw, There are a lot of high performance ceramics out there.

[Captain Ahab Jr]

I've been designing and using carbon composite materials for nearly 20yrs now and from your description I don't think its the right choice of material for you.

Can you go into anymore detail about what you want to make, does it see any temperature, impacts, what sort of spherical tolerance are you after, how many do you want to make. The more information you can give the easier it will be to choose the right material.

You may want to look at an alumnium loaded adhesive, Hysol 9394 is quite strong and I guess could be cast but you may run into problems with it not curing or curing too fast with the size of volume you are looking at.

There are also quite few good rapid prototyping alumnium loaded materials such as Windform XT, very strong and there would be no tooling or mould needed.

[Zeke]

Well, I guess since there are some really qualified members here, I'll tell you that it IS for a golf club head. But Callaway has not seen one like this. Basically, a novelty, but it does need to work fairly well.

Not a driver, OK? That and putters are way overdone.

[island911]

One? ..or 100k?

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by island911

One? ..or 100k?

Well, one, two, a dozen for now. Got to see first if it works and then give some to players to evaluate. I'm sure I'l throw away plenty before the thing works at all.

I've done some casual research on the subject and the tools for the game are over engineered way more than I would consider. But, there are some necessary parameters and club head density as well as weight dynamics are essential to hit the ball.

BTW, I don't play golf. I did a long time ago and was good. It just didn't interest me. Now, with shoulder problems, it's out of the question. If I did play, I'd like the short game much more than the other end of the fairway.

My idea would help the short game.

[Captain Ahab Jr]

I can safely say I've never designed a golf club, closest bit to sporting equipment I done was some ninja throwing stars

I'm not a golfer but when you say short game do you mean on the green stuff or further like getting yourself out of the sand.

To make a golf club you are going to make some expensive tooling and use some expensive equipment. Advanced composites ie using heat and pressure to cure is not something many people have access to and if you do you will pay a lot of money for the priviledge. Before you even make a part you will spend a small fortune having moulds machined.

I would suggest you get hold of some pre-cured carbon/epoxy stock block (thick sheets of pre-cured plies) and machine the shape of club you want. If you want to tune the centre of gravity you could do this with bonded in high density metallic weights or changing the section thickness.

Attaching it to and keeping it attached to the shaft will be the hard bit. Easiest way would to do a design that involved a machined hole for the shaft to bond into or use a metallic dowel pin to join the head to the shaft.

Without a drawing or sketch it quite hard to suggest the best way of going about it.

HTH

[bleucamaro]

read your PM, and other posts in the thread, and I don't think that traditional CF, or even FRP (firber reinforced plastic) is something you want. I'm not a golfer either, but I do remember a little about inelastic collisions from physics. It seems to me that the more rigid the striking object, the more energy is transferred to the object being hit. Now, I have absolutely no idea about controlling the ball, but I think the face geometry, its relation to the shaft, and the CG of the club has something to do with it. To make a prototype, I would probably build it out of a rigid metal frame/face with adjustable shaft angle, and adjustable weights. Then when I got it so it felt good, I'd injection mold around it with a high stiffness low density plastic.

If you already have the overall mass, the CG location and all your geometries set, Why not a metal face/frame with weights attached, potted in a resin, or injection molded. Also, knowing the density of the plastic, you could reduce the added balance masses.

Was the monolith idea to serve a price point, or for aesthetics?

[Zeke]

Monolithic or a sandwich, doesn't matter. Yes, the golf club is all about angles and balance. Designers have gone to great lengths to achieve perfection, but I think aesthetics do come into play.

I'm probably somewhere near the aesthetics camp given that I am invoking the novelty aspect. You might say my idea is even somewhat cartoonish.

There are so many golfers out there that I think one could sell just about anything in the way of gear. If there's a bit of humor involved, I think that will aide in the marketing. No one needs yet another practical golf club for such an impractical game.

I bet I could fasten a 5 iron head to a Shillelagh and sell it.

But this is getting complicated and I guess that's why no one has really done much with the idea except Lamborghini and Callaway in their joint venture linked to above. Just know that I was on the same wave length when the idea popped into my head last year. I had too many irons in the fire at the time.

[McLovin]

Originally Posted by milt

There are so many golfers out there that I think one could sell just about anything in the way of gear. If there's a bit of humor involved, I think that will aide in the marketing.

You and about a million other inventors! Seriously, the golf field has more inventors, coming up with new (and often bizarre) stuff each year. There used to be a show on the Golf Channel about them.

Part of it is because golfers do buy a lot of "stuff" in the search for lower scores. For the most part, golfers focus more on stuff they can buy to fix their shot, rather than actually working hard to fix their shot.

Go to one of the 100 sq. ft. Golfsmiths or Roger Dunns in your area to see if what you are thinking of hasn't already been done, and to see what is already out there that may be similar.

The selling of golf related stuff is a very crowded, competitive field, but on the upside there is a lot of it sold.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by McLovin

You and about a million other inventors! Seriously, the golf field has more inventors, coming up with new (and often bizarre) stuff each year. There used to be a show on the Golf Channel about them.

Part of it is because golfers do buy a lot of "stuff" in the search for lower scores. For the most part, golfers focus more on stuff they can buy to fix their shot, rather than actually working hard to fix their shot.

Go to one of the 100 sq. ft. Golfsmiths or Roger Dunns in your area to see if what you are thinking of hasn't already been done, and to see what is already out there that may be similar.

The selling of golf related stuff is a very crowded, competitive field, but on the upside there is a lot of it sold.

I hear ya. The last thing I'd do is try to get a conventional distribution deal. I'm more apt to see if I could get a celebrity to play with the thing and make a mystery out of it. Or put it in the hands of a trick shot specialist and Youtube the bejeezus out of it.

Strictly guerrilla marketing for me.

If this doesn't work (and it's looking difficult), I will open up that drawer that has 30 years of ideas and throw another dart.

Uhmmmmm... darts....

[Embraer]

milt, did your golf club ever come to fruition?