Architects - Need Advice

[Seahawk]

Folks,

I am in the middle of working options for replacing a rental house we had on the farm. Thread here: Requiem for a House

The foundation is now filled in and grassed.





The problem is we have is that we really prefer the farm and farm views without the house there. Scrapping the house really opened up the vistas. We have decided to not build anything there and bring an underutilized space into play...the large tobacco barn in the distance in the first photo.

What we would to do is concrete the floor (now dirt) and turn it into a larger shop for my use.

We would also like to add a second story loft office/apartment above the shop. Some interior shots:




My issue is I have a lot of ideas but no way figuring out the suitability of them without a professional. I have never used an architect in this capacity and don't want to waste their time or goon it. So, what are the rules with bringing an architect out to look at options?

Is it free the first time? Do I ask for quotes? Is there a particular type of architect for these type of remodels? Etc., etc.

Also, any question I should ask the architect would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[pete3799]

Well i'm no architect but.......i think you'll be better off (cheaper) to start from scratch vs.trying to remodel what you have.
Perhaps another fire drill?

[MarkRobinson]

You do need to hire one to get your answers. I'd call a few firms: most have specialties and may/may not know who will specialize in what you're up to, but sooner or later you'll find someone who is a specialist.

Once you find someone who's up your alley, ask them what they normally do as far as a possible proposal and preliminary concepts. Our firm will study a 4-5 million dollar project for about $30k to see what will need to be involved & see if the owner's needs are within his budget. Not sure what's done on private, lower $ projects.

A structural engineer will need to be solicited to figure out how to pour the slab & protect your existing structure (as the dirt needs to be removed/compacted/prepared for the slab, which may/may not be higher than the existing dirt floor: covering the ability to protect the base of your wood columns), and to ascertain what would be needed to fortify the structure for adding a space above it. I'd ask the same questions to the structural engineer: how do they normally "study" projects like this??

Start calling

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by pete3799

Well i'm no architect but.......i think you'll be better off (cheaper) to start from scratch vs.trying to remodel what you have.
Perhaps another fire drill?

That may very well be, Pete...like I said, we are looking at options more for the apartment/office space than anything. I'd like to stay within existing footprints but it may, has you suggested, be stupid to do so.

I'll keep this barn, though, for the shop space

[MFAFF]

Paul,

This is top challenge for any architect...one that really gets the creative juices going. I wish I still lived in Alexandria VA and could drop by.

First off... chat to a few locals and see if they are interested in the challenge.
You may want to note down a few essentials that you want to have...the floor, the mezzanine.. anything else? Bathroom? Kitchen area etc etc just so you discuss the same thing with each and add to the list as you talk. Having a pack of information relating to the barn (a simple sketch plan with some dimensions is fine, a few pictures of thee barn, inside and out, plus a few of its setting and views towards it would be great.)

A conversation like this should be 'free'....and then you can discuss what you might obtain for say a $5000 fee in terms of a few options/ concepts which accommodate your ideas. You should discuss what 'deliverables' they are prepared to generate in this phase....it might be a few plan options with sketches to explain the basic layout, a quick 3D sketch etc... but ensure that what you are asking for represents a realistic ask for the amount of money you are prepared to pay a this stage.

I suggest that within that fee the architect allow for an initial kick off workshop session, walking around the site with you...an update session half way through (say 2 weeks into the project) then a final session with you and family after a month. This allows you to have a mid course correction of the work, rather than let the design wander off into the long grass.

At the end of project the architect should hand over a couple of colour printed copies of the report he/ she has done for you, with right to use the designs and material as you chose. You should be able to work out if you could work with them more to develop the designs or not by then.

The architect 'should' be able to provide some advice regarding how realistic the idea are in terms of relevant legislation.. turning a barn into something else... changing the appearance etc. And also any big 'gotcha's' regarding installing a solid floor and some advice on structure, even if its only 'get professional advice"!

The more you put into it before you interview/ hire an architect the more they have to work with and the more they can deliver for the price.

An alternative could be to chat to a couple of architecture schools near you (Virginia Tech has an Urban Design Campus in Old Town Alexandria and there's Catholic University in DC.... they might be interested in this as a quick design study for the new students in the fall...and you might obtain some inspiration and great ideas to kick your own ideas into gear.

I hope that helps..

[rusnak]

Call around, and find out who is a really good, cheap Stuctural Engineer (the guys who figure out load reqs, not HVAC). Ask the local gov't planning agency,for recs as well.

[john70t]

Being pessimistic here but I foresee a slippery slope in creating a legally habitable space: drywall and sprinkler systems for the first floor commercial-use area, several staircases, headroom code with knee walls taking up half the floorplan, water and electric services, etc..

I'd think it would be less headache to build a small insulated office on the first floor, and leave the overhead for storage.

[kach22i]

I looked at a similar but much smaller project, a large garage out in the country. An artist friend of mine turned it into his studio.

I went though a bunch of options with him on insulation and what not. Pointed out some existing rotten wood and existing water penetration issues.

He paid me for my travel time and the couple of hours I was there for an "idea session". Being a nice guy and not a good business man, I made $200-300, never heard form him again until he had an open house.

It came out nice, but I know he will have problems down the road, he did not even insulate the perimeter of the slab. Don't think the roof insulation is properly ventilated either, it could come raining down on him when the trapped moisture up there freezes.

He did not pay me to do the drawings even though I told him in detail all of what I would have to go though to make it right. I don't think he used any drawings, very reckless of him in my opinion. But he saved a buck or two in the short run, right?

[Zeke]

While I think placing concrete inside is a great improvement, I don't think closing in the space up in the rafters is. I like the charm of open upper space.

For any practicality of a workshop and office in your climate, the main structure will be all but impossible to heat and cool. I'd build separate areas within the main building for these purposes while trying to highlight the overall feeling of the tobacco barn.

There are not enough pics here to go from, but what would a 2 story structure at one end look like? Maybe with an exposed staircase and balcony entrance to the upper facility.

Actually, the shorter building looks longer by proportion and might be the better candidate for something built at one end. At least you'd get a single story out of that.

Think also of cutting dormers into the roof.

Again, w/o pics, I can't see the possibilities. Could one be connecting the 2 buildings with new construction geared for the living portion be an option?

[RWebb]

in my town, it is cheaper to remodel what you have -- anything at all -- than to start from scratch b/c of permits fees & systems development charges

you need to find that out for your county, state & township (if you have those) -- you are not inside any town's limits (or urban growth boundary, etc.) are you?

the cheapest & most, ah rural charm way to go, would be to sand blast all the rafters and superstructure; get a good sprayer and hose everything down with stain; put in hydronic heat hoses & any underfloor utility runs; then lay a concrete pad (maybe with coloring agent??) and add whatever from there

you'll sanitize any nasties from the barn use & it will look nice & rustic

[azasadny]

My next-door neighbor is a builder/architect and when we hired him to renovate our 1200sq ft house into a 2400sq ft house, he did a "design-build" and it was great because there wasn't any finger-pointing. You may want to contact a few builders and see if they work with an architect or could recommend one or two. Get a 2nd opinion on everything. Looks like a great project for you!!!

[Zeke]

Rnady, sandblasting beams is so 70's. You guys up there in Orygun aren't that far behind the times, are you?

The last time I was up there I left here and got there 20 years earlier.

[RWebb]

1870's?

[john70t]

That certainly looks like a interesting framing job. At the least, those bays might be able to be simplified and opened up to obtain more working room and/or fit a chain hoist.

[Seahawk]

Thanks for all for your replies...the advice was exactly what I was hoping for (PMs as well).

The two surviving tobacco barns are fairly old, the large one is at least 75 years old.

A few years ago I had them both re-roofed and "wrapped" in metal...the siding was attached to the old barn siding. I talked to a lot of folks about the process and came to the conclusion that wrapping worked best for me and the structural integrity of the barns. All the old wood remains should someone later want to do a wood restoration.





The second phase was to put in a workshop in the smaller, longer barn, next to the tobacco stripping room, now with white windows above.. I had been using the old stripping room for all farm maintenance work. The issue with the old barns is they were meant for hanging tobacco, so much of what you saw in the first post are not structural members but beams meant to hold stupid amounts of hanging tobacco.



So. My preference would be one of two things: Improve the old tobacco barn, build new attached to it (there is an outfit called Geobarns that is amazing), or improve the new stable with an office/apartment.

Again, the advice and suggestions have been spot on. Thanks and if you have more, I'm in!

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by RWebb

1870's?

Yeah, show me an 1870's air compressor with the volume to sandblast that is portable enough to take out on Paul's farm.

Paul, more pics of the juxtaposition of the buildings, please.

[kach22i]

The warning I give people on barns is based mostly upon what I have read.

If animals were kept in there, the oils form their fur/skins gets absorbed into the wood. If you turn this into a human occupied space, you turn up the heat which warms up the wood, releasing the sent of long gone animals into the air. Sheep are reported to be the worst.

I can imagine that tobacco leaves would be leaving the same air born oily residue in the structure. You new space may end up smelling like a humidor no mater how many layers of vapor barrier or venting you employ.

I wish I knew of a test which would help you determine if this will be a problem.

Does the barn still smell a little like tobacco on a really hot day?

One of my favorite books on converting barns into living spaces shows a new independent building built within an existing old barn. The contrast is really striking and very pleasing to the eye. I'll scan some images if interested.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by kach22i

Does the barn still smell a little like tobacco on a really hot day?

One of my favorite books on converting barns into living spaces shows a new independent building built within an existing old barn. The contrast is really striking and very pleasing to the eye. I'll scan some images if interested.

Wow, George, I hadn't thought of that. No animals, just tobacco. On a hot day, at ground level there is an old barn smell (stupid I know, but that is what it smells like). Not exactly a tobacco smell.

On of the thoughts I had was exactly what you mentioned: Create a iron skeleton inside the barn for the office/apartment (no more than 700 sf inside, with a deck overlooking the Potomac outside. The scan(s) would be much appreciated or I can order the book if recommend doing so. My email is paul.morgan@tacticalsystemsengineering.com

Again, thanks.

Milt: Here is a Google shot of the mid 1/3 of the farm:



The rental house is gone.

My next, not difficult plan, is to add a shed row on the back of the shop/equipment shed for trailer (four) storage.

Other than that, as you look down, the tough parts are either reworking the TB or stable, or adding a new structure adjacent to either.

It is worth noting that the stable sits on the highest point on the farm and gets excellent breezes.

[kach22i]

I looked in my dated barn book and could not find the image I had in mind.

The barn book is a pretty picture large format book, good for ideas. I'm not claiming you need to seek it out on Amazon used books and acquire it. There may be better books out there for your stated goals. It is a nice coffee table book though.

BARN
1992
Houghton Mifflin Company
ISBN 0-395-57372-6

Be aware that in most states there is a code book just for renovation. It more or less says; any new work must meet the new code, old stuff can be left alone if not increasing structural loads by more than X% or increasing occupancy loads beyond a certain point.

Keep in mind that mixing commercial and residential uses; either side by side or above and below each other makes for a complex project (fire walls and the like).