Be CAREFUL about doing business with an indian tribe!

[Normy]

-There is a big stink going on in Fort Lauderdale regarding the actions of the Seminole tribe of indians of Florida. It seems that they are tearing up a signed lease of some of their land and forcibly removing the tenants.

A recent Federal court order changed that; The big question is whether or not the tribe will obey the order!

Apparently, if you enter into a contract with an indian tribe, they can simply refuse to pay or deliver on their end, and you have very little recourse in the court system.



Here's the article:

N



Michael Mayo
Sun Sentinel Columnist

Three years ago, the Seminole Tribe settled a business dispute with the managers of a mobile home park by calling in its armed muscle. A dozen tribal cops seized the rental office and kicked out employees as tribal leaders announced they were reclaiming control of the land on its Hollywood reservation.

It seemed a typical strong-arm tactic by a powerful local outfit used to throwing its weight around as a "sovereign nation."

Turns out the Seminoles might have overstepped their authority, even on their own territory.

Last week, in a stunning rebuke to the tribe and its sovereign status, a federal judge ordered the property returned to the management company.

It's just one case, and it's just a preliminary injunction, but the ruling could put a dent in the Seminoles' disconcerting habit of getting out of contracts they don't like by invoking their tribal status. Or sending in the guys with guns.

On Monday, the tribe is supposed to turn over "physical and financial control" of the Seminole Estates mobile home park, formerly known as Hollywood Mobile Estates, to the management firm that was forcibly evicted in July 2008.

Whether this actually happens is anyone's guess.

Remember, the Seminoles, who have become wealthy beyond imagination with their casino operations, like to call themselves "The Unconquered."

"The tribe is considering its next steps," tribal spokesman Gary Bitner said Wednesday.

U.S. District Judge William Dimitrouleas, who once warned businesses about entering into contracts with the tribe, which isn't subject to all U.S. and Florida laws, made the July 1 ruling after a federal appeals court overturned part of his earlier decision tossing the entire case.

Given this opening, Dimitrouleas found the former management firm could suffer "irreparable injury" if he didn't act. He noted the tribe didn't give the management firm proper notice or time to fix alleged lease violations. And he concurred with the management firm's contention that "the public interest is served by compelling (tribal) compliance with the law."

"It is a big, and proper, victory," said Dan Adkins, vice president of Hartman & Tyner, a Michigan company that's been a partner in Hollywood Mobile Estates since 1986. Hartman & Tyner also owns the Mardi Gras Casino in Hallandale Beach.

Hollywood Mobile Estates had a lease to run the mobile home park through 2024. The lease, approved by the U.S. Interior Department's Bureau of Indian Affairs, called for the Seminoles to get 15 percent of annual revenues.

The Seminoles originally leased the land in 1969 to a developer who built the mobile home park.

The 138-acre tract, just south of the Seminole Classic Casino on State Road 7, has 753 units that house roughly 2,000 elderly residents. The residents own their trailers but pay monthly rent for the land and trash pick-up.

When the Seminoles took over in 2008, they told residents that the community would remain open for at least five years. But they also reminded residents that they could be forced to leave at any time. Bitner said the land comprises nearly 25 percent of the Hollywood reservation, and that the tribe has a "severe housing shortage" for its 3,200 members.

Bitner said the former management company failed to develop a potentially lucrative commercial strip on the property, allowed the park to fall into disrepair, and desecrated a tribal cemetery on the grounds. Adkins said those claims are untrue.

"The tribe saw itself with little choice but to act to protect this valuable tribal resource from further neglect," Bitner said.

The attorney for the Seminole Estates residents' association and its president didn't know about the judge's order until I told them.

"I really don't know what's going on, so I don't want to comment," said association president Nancy Gallagher.

Said association attorney Louis St. Laurent: "The residents might have more legal protections and long-term security with the [old] management in place, but until I see them physically on the property it will be hard to believe."

Adkins said his attorney, Bruce Rogow, who helped the Seminoles win numerous legal victories in their gambling expansion, is trying to get clarification from tribal attorneys about what comes next.

Adkins said the tribe might appeal the judge's ruling.

"Or they might be defiant, and just ignore the judge's order," Adkins said. "Could they be found in contempt of court? Who knows?"

I asked Adkins what he'll do on Monday: Does he ask for U.S. marshals to accompany him as he tries to reclaim the property? Might there be a confrontation if tribal authorities block his entry?

"I just typed that exact question in an e-mail to Bruce," Adkins said. "I don't know. These are uncharted waters."

[MotoSook]

Wonder how many contracts were broken by the white man many moons ago

[masraum]

Yeah, that's really weird, because the indians have always been dealt with fairly. We got their land completely voluntarily (from their side) and never used anything but fair practices.

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

Did the original treaty allow specific governing actions to The Seminole People?

IF The Seminole People have rights of an independent nation then their laws and customs could be brought to bear in legal proceedings with another country, in this case US Citizens.

So many loops and turns.


No, white men never broke any contracts... (I do not have specific heritage related to US Natives nor have I ever played an attorney on TV or in the movies but I have played one on stage. I did sleep in a Hampton Inn recently (after leaving the Radisson due to the silverfish and roaches) so that SHOULD count for something.)

[MotoSook]

And they are not Indians. Not even Hindu.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

There is a delicious irony in the tribe kicking the white man off their land...

Admittedly this will come back to bite them in the butt, as nobody else will dare contract with them or bring investment to them out of fear that they'll simply welch on the deal.

[Danny_Ocean]

Remember Wounded Knee...

[Brando]

They are a sovereign nation (and are recognized as such by our government[s]) but that does not preclude them from violating a contract.

I guess the defining term here is 'compel'. How will we compel a 'sovereign nation' to follow our terms? I only see threat of force (by the gov).

[craigster59]

[teenerted1]

Originally Posted by Brando

They are a sovereign nation (and are recognized as such by our government[s]) but that does not preclude them from violating a contract.

I guess the defining term here is 'compel'. How will we compel a 'sovereign nation' to follow our terms? I only see threat of force (by the gov).

well they could close all the roads that lead to the casino.

[RWebb]

note the alleged lease violations by the mgmt. co.; the tribe then stepped in to take back their land (which apparently is part of their sovereign territory)

the issue is whether they gave adequate notice and time to the mgmt. co. to rectify whatever the lease violations were

recognized tribes are indeed sovereign, but are not co-equal with the US Govt.

Congress can do anything they want to Indians (as long as it is within the US Const.)

what the Ct.s or federal agencies can do (or will do) is another question

[LakeCleElum]

A Casino around here is in big financial trouble.....Spent 1/3 billion to build it on a construction loan.....Loan (from another Res) is now due and the tribe cannot get another loan. Why not? Because, if they default, white man cannot come in and repossess...Much Wapaum and smoking of the peace pipe going on!

[mjohnson]

Same story here in NM.

Big development. The next Las Vegas (NV not NM!).

Lots of bonds, not so much repayment. Sorry boys...

Big casino consultant company got hired, had a look around, and bailed. Even they wouldn't be a part of what they saw.

It happens...

[GH85Carrera]

I know of several large companies that will not work on any tribal land project. The risk is just too great.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by masraum

Yeah, that's really weird, because the indians have always been dealt with fairly. We got their land completely voluntarily (from their side) and never used anything but fair practices.

What do you mean we? I never did that, did you? If so you should really be ashamed of yourself.

Point of history:
There was a race to settle the west between France, Spain, Britain, and even Russia.
if the US hadn't claimed that land another European country would have. Spain had already claimed most of the south west and west coast (and floor-e-da).
They were over-extended and couldn't afford to keep it, so they bailed and mexico sort of inherited the southwest by default, and did nothing with it for 30 years before we took over.
But we have bleeding hearts and racists that claim we stole that land from mexico. Bullsheet.

If those other countries had claimed most of the US, do you think they would spend tens of billions every year to support a race of people who do nothing to support themselves? Except build casinos of course.

Now before anyone jumps in with something they imagined or made up, let's have a show of hands.
How many bleeding hearts have spent time actually trying to help an indian tribe? How many have lived on a reservation?

I have.

Our church gathered materials and went to the Apache reservation in arid-zona to build a schoolhouse.
I was there for 6 days and saw how they live. Disgustingly lazy people. They care about nothing except squandering the gifts they are given.
The gumbint builds them houses, which they destroy.
We build them towns, which they trash. We put in plumbing, which they tear up and sell for firewater. We buy them new pick-up trucks, which they get trunk and total. And the gubmint replaces them so they can do it again.
Don't believe me? go to the Arizona apache reservation and check out their junk yard. Hundreds and hundreds of totaled trucks, most of them with less than 20,000 miles. Just sitting out in there rusting away.


Within a year of completion they had trashed the schoolhouse we built until it was no longer habitable. Within two years they had burned it down.

Some folks in our church tried to organize another build, but every single person who had spent time on that reservation refused to participate.
You can't help someone who doesn't want help and doesn't want to help themselves.

in comparison ,we built a similar schoolhouse in Mexico. The people there were extremely grateful and are taking care of it and being responsible.
I would have no problem going back there to help those people more. We still have programs to gather shoes, clothes, and eyeglasses etc to donate to that little town.

The bleeding hearts are responsible for the plight of the indians.
When you give people everything they have they lose the will to work. They are now social slaves and the more the bleeding hearts try to make excuses for them and give them, the worse it will get.
What they need it a hand up and a kick in the pants, not a hand out or excuse.

Our country has spent more money over the past 150 years supporting these people than all the things we supposedly "stole" were worth.

[MotoSook]

You're cherry picking some points in history there Sammy.

Did the US Goverment really have to do anything? What do you suppose would have happened to the "pre-European 'American' natives" if the Europeans, more to the point the British, had not felt they needed the America as we know it and simply stayed on the East Coast...better yet what would have happened to the natives if the Europeans had not come? Would they have starved and asked King George for welfare?

ETA: you are kinda blaming them for being what we created....

[cgarr]

I do business with them every time I walk into their casino!

[dentist90]

We've got similar issues in Canada. First Nations demand to be consulted on any project that is to be developed, as it involves their traditional lands. Problem is that here in BC natives have laid claim to some 110% of the land mass. And because they consider themselves sovereign nations they claim the right to veto any development. Some of these first nations only represent a couple hundred people. Most of our native bands are not well off... very few have casinos, and the only reason they do is because they claim sovereignty. I cannot start my own casino without government permits and oversight. But gambling, although lucrative, does not seem to me a very productive lifestyle.

Many tribes in Canada have had land/cash settlements, along with hunting/fishing/resource rights, that were supposed to be final. But when the money runs out our Fed gov't has to step in to help. There are internal complaints (rightly so) about nepotism and corruption with the band Chiefs, but that is part of their sovereign system. We can't fix that for them without going back to a paternal system again.

But what to do? The way I see it a cohesive, functional country cannot have multiple sovereign governments within. There must be an over-riding federal system that all others fall under. There should be only one constitution. Our French population in Quebec is another sovereignist group who feel they deserve special status above other Canadian citizens.
Lincoln said it very well: a housed divided against itself cannot stand. If integration is the answer how do we accomplish it while allowing first nations (and other special groups) to maintain their traditional culture in an evolving world?

[billh1963]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

What do you mean we? I never did that, did you? If so you should really be ashamed of yourself.

Point of history:
There was a race to settle the west between France, Spain, Britain, and even Russia.
if the US hadn't claimed that land another European country would have. Spain had already claimed most of the south west and west coast (and floor-e-da).
They were over-extended and couldn't afford to keep it, so they bailed and mexico sort of inherited the southwest by default, and did nothing with it for 30 years before we took over.
But we have bleeding hearts and racists that claim we stole that land from mexico. Bullsheet.

If those other countries had claimed most of the US, do you think they would spend tens of billions every year to support a race of people who do nothing to support themselves? Except build casinos of course.

Now before anyone jumps in with something they imagined or made up, let's have a show of hands.
How many bleeding hearts have spent time actually trying to help an indian tribe? How many have lived on a reservation?

I have.

Our church gathered materials and went to the Apache reservation in arid-zona to build a schoolhouse.
I was there for 6 days and saw how they live. Disgustingly lazy people. They care about nothing except squandering the gifts they are given.
The gumbint builds them houses, which they destroy.
We build them towns, which they trash. We put in plumbing, which they tear up and sell for firewater. We buy them new pick-up trucks, which they get trunk and total. And the gubmint replaces them so they can do it again.
Don't believe me? go to the Arizona apache reservation and check out their junk yard. Hundreds and hundreds of totaled trucks, most of them with less than 20,000 miles. Just sitting out in there rusting away.


Within a year of completion they had trashed the schoolhouse we built until it was no longer habitable. Within two years they had burned it down.

Some folks in our church tried to organize another build, but every single person who had spent time on that reservation refused to participate.
You can't help someone who doesn't want help and doesn't want to help themselves.

in comparison ,we built a similar schoolhouse in Mexico. The people there were extremely grateful and are taking care of it and being responsible.
I would have no problem going back there to help those people more. We still have programs to gather shoes, clothes, and eyeglasses etc to donate to that little town.

The bleeding hearts are responsible for the plight of the indians.
When you give people everything they have they lose the will to work. They are now social slaves and the more the bleeding hearts try to make excuses for them and give them, the worse it will get.
What they need it a hand up and a kick in the pants, not a hand out or excuse.

Our country has spent more money over the past 150 years supporting these people than all the things we supposedly "stole" were worth.

Don't bring reality into the situation....you will get some people upset.

The liberals like to beatify blacks, indians, and anyone else they get a guilt trip about. Most of these same liberals have never set foot in any areas controlled by the groups they think so highly of.

[vash]

there are Jerks in all walks of life. arsehole-ness does not have boundries..

maybe the natives are still pissed off about that eensyteensy little smallpox issue.? personally, it pisses me off that our native americans own the best hunting grounds..
just kidding.

it is illegal to collect bear gall bladders, but not on the mescalero indian reservation. you shoot a bear, and you can barely take the time for a picture. while your admiring the image on your camera, they swoop in, take the gall bladder, and they are off to some mysterious land, called "the black market".