Cop threatens to execute driver over concealed weapon permit(bad language alert)

[tevake]

Originally Posted by silverwhaletail

Interesting on many levels.

Shoot/Don't Shoot incidents are challenging. To this day I regret not shooting an illegal immigrant whom had just killed one guy, and was walking toward another vehicle, gun in hand, arm outstretched, preparing to kill the three vehicle occupants whom he mistakenly thought were associates of the guy that he had killed three minutes prior. (the three guys in the car were in the wrong place at the wrong time)

My partner and I were on a car stop at Anaheim Street/Cherry Avenue in Long Beach when we saw the suspect run across Anaheim Street with a gun in his hand. We stalked him into a Mexican Bar parking lot and confronted him as he walked toward the vehicle with the three occupants. We had a position of cover behind an old Cadillac and when we confronted him, he dropped the gun immediately.

In retrospect, we realized that he could have very easily gotten off two or three rounds into that vehicle, striking the occupants from point blank range.

Stupid. We should have capped the suspect. We knew that we were in a position of safety and failed to properly react.

But back to the open carry law...

Our latest training update has given us the "green light" to immediately shoot anyone holding a gun, or anything that we perceive as possibly being a gun.

No more shouting, "Police, drop the weapon!" I was amazed as I watched the video. The new updates are the result of "act/react" studies. Very interesting (and sobering) information.

The open carry guys are going to probably win a few small state court judgements, but ultimately, it is going to cost a few of them their lives. The Open Carry guys are going to continue to "push it" and cops are going to begin shooting them.

When this finally gets to the US Supreme Court, the Supremes are going to decide that the "greater public interest" is served by allowing the police to shoot anyone who wears a gun in public and who's hands are not held above their heads with palms open. (or an interpretation strikingly similar to this.)

The alternative is for the Supremes to rule the other way, in which case the police will simply refuse to contact anyone wearing a gun. So if you want to commit ANY kind of offense, simply advertise that you are open carrying, and the police will simply turn the other way. Why would any cop confront anyone open carrying a gun if the cop is not granted a presumption of immunity???

A couple things come to mind, first about the shoot first policy. Aren't those the kind of guide lines that led to the killing of a man on his back steps with a hose nozzle in his hand? And probably many others where there was some question as to the subjects intensions? Also isn't the out come of the incident you described an indecation of a more positive out come than if you just "caped him on sight" Are you so hardened that the result of your restraint displeases you?
Perhaps in hindsight you might change your reaction in the future. But to regret not killing him after it turned the way it did is troublesome, don't you think.

I have family in law enforcement and respect the job they do and that that you do for us all.
Just concerned that it can lead to some deadly attitudes in those doing the job, that need to be kept in check.

Cheers Richard

[Hugh R]

The only time I've ever carried was the days after the Rodney King riots. I'm not allowed to possess one in any business (work) situation anywhere. Not even when I was in South Africa, we did have armed security however.

[rickybbear]

scum-bag with a badge

[silverwhaletail]

Originally Posted by tevake

A couple things come to mind, first about the shoot first policy. Aren't those the kind of guide lines that led to the killing of a man on his back steps with a hose nozzle in his hand?

What led to the shooting of hose nozzle boy are the 911 calls from the neighbors who reported that an unknown man with a gun was sitting on their apartment exterior steps.

That hose nozzle boy was drunker than a skunk did not help him.

That hose nozzle boy had a metal object in his hand that resembled a hand gun, and that the metal object was being pointed around like a hand gun did not help hose nozzle boy.

I have no information that the City of Long Beach has settled the lawsuit. Does anyone else have details on that??

[avi8torny]

silverwhaletail's attitude will make him a short timer. I hope his bosses will see his Silver 911 in the parking lot and put 2 and 2 together. He'll either get jammed during his short career and canned or relegated to a support position in HQ under supervision. Being a 27 LEO, I think his attitude is too cavalier and will lead to reckless behavior both on and off the job. It obviously has with his posts. A Department policy, any department policy stresses that Deadly Physical Force is the last option, not the first. He is wrong.

On a side note regarding open carry, open carry with a gun unloaded seems idiotic to me and obviously geared to some sort of confrontation or discussion relating to the lawfullness of same. Yeah it was cool to dress up like Butch Cassidy and Sundance when we were 10 years old, having a fake revolver hanging from your belt. But not when your an adult. I'm in the mindset of thinking if you have a Concealed Permit, then carry it concealed and don't make it obvious. Don't sit at Starbucks with it strapped to your ankle and then cross your legs so everyone can see that the "big man" has a gun. This is not Israel where everyone has a gun. It makes people nervous and will most likely lead to an encounter with LE (weird if that was the desired outcome). Obviously the real threat for LE is what you can't see, not what you can.

Just my $.02 worth, sorry for the rant. 99.9% of the guys and gals I work with take people's safety seriously and the last thing they want to do is draw their weapon.

[silverwhaletail]

Originally Posted by tevake

Also isn't the out come of the incident you described an indecation of a more positive out come than if you just "caped him on sight" Are you so hardened that the result of your restraint displeases you?
Perhaps in hindsight you might change your reaction in the future. But to regret not killing him after it turned the way it did is troublesome, don't you think.

No. Answer this:

Say you had a piece of property for sale and you had a strong, firm offer at X dollars. As a condition of the sale, you had to have a termite inspection completed and to the buyer by close of business Friday. Well, Friday comes and goes and you do not complete the termite inspection. You have lost your strong, firm offer.

On Monday morning, the buyer calls back and states that the offer stands. You complete the termite inspection and you sell the property.

Would you be okay with the fact that your failure to perform nearly cost you the sale? Or would you be disappointed in yourself that your slovenliness nearly cost you a very good deal?

Sure, your happy that "it worked out", but you are going to do everything in your power the next time to make sure that it doesn't happen again.

And I think that I said that my partner and I were disappointed that we didn't shoot the suspect. Whether he was killed or not is immaterial. Except maybe to Hugh the taxpayer who gets to foot the bill for 30 years on death row...

[silverwhaletail]

Originally Posted by Joe Bob

Rick....and silver whatever......

You fail to grasp my comment. LEOs that constantly fondle their weapons are ....a little ....problematic.

I once had a PD respond to me at my rez for a burglary. The guy stood sideways with his right hand obscured. I had a discussion with is superior......he went and had retraining.

I support my gov. I fear the asshats they employ. Cops can have their cliques, their bars, their whatever.....I'll stay away.

F off.

Nobody is fondling a weapon. My gun belt and equipment weighs 27 pounds. That's 15% of my body weight. I wear body armor and a dark blue wool shirt and pants in Southern California during July. Excuse me for trying to stay comfortable.

What do you do for a living? What kind of physical condition are you in? How old are you?

FYI, the cop's "superior" told the cop, "Hey, by the way, the victim with a small dick on that residential burglary that you took tonight didn't like that you talked to him while in the Position of Interview. He said that you were intimidating him. And he's pissed that his wife gave you her cell phone number. Whatever you do, don't call that btch. Until next week."

[silverwhaletail]

Originally Posted by joe bob

eat my shorts....silver weenie....have a nice day. You are an insult to your proffesion.

:d

[Rick Lee]

In before the lock.

I really have no problem with cops always being ready and there's simply nothing wrong with resting a hand on a hip when there's a gun there and you're a cop. I'm much a gun nut as the day is long and want the gov't. to obey the law and all that. As long as it's holstered, I'm fine with it. When it comes ot of the holster, there needs to be a good reason.

[Hawktel]

Who will guard the guardians Plato?

[Joeaksa]

My heartburn with this is what if a citizen happens upon a situation where a criminal is shooting or about to shoot innocent people. The citizen walks up to the area, is legally armed and pulls his weapon to deal with the situation.

Behind him are several police who just arrived and instead of saying something to properly deal with the situation (stop, drop the weapon) they simply shoot the person trying to help.

Guys, if this is what our cops are being taught these days then we ALL have a problem and this needs to change.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

My heartburn with this is what if a citizen happens upon a situation where a criminal is shooting or about to shoot innocent people. The citizen walks up to the area, is legally armed and pulls his weapon to deal with the situation.

Behind him are several police who just arrived and instead of saying something to properly deal with the situation (stop, drop the weapon) they simply shoot the person trying to help.

Guys, if this is what our cops are being taught these days then we ALL have a problem and this needs to change.

Then you'd better call it in first and tell 911 you're the good guy. I am not clearing leather to defend a stranger. Sorry, but it's not worth a jail sentence, financial ruin or getting shot by the cops by mistake. Ain't worth it. In AZ, permit holders are required by law to stop and assist an LEO if he's in trouble. But that's not the case with total strangers/civilians.

I can't imagine how hard it is for cops to sort out a situation when they arrive on scene. I do not want to be mistaken for an armed bad guy.

[Brando]

It appears that the training or policy is to remove thought from the situation. Act this way, don't think about it. No Badge + gun? Kill it.

[slakjaw]

I don't think the police understand that they work for us. I really don't think they get that.

[slakjaw]

Hey, if we all start packing, maybe guys like silver deepthinker would be out of a job. Let's all start packing heat

[slakjaw]

+10000

my heartburn with this is what if a citizen happens upon a situation where a criminal is shooting or about to shoot innocent people. The citizen walks up to the area, is legally armed and pulls his weapon to deal with the situation.



behind him are several police who just arrived and instead of saying something to properly deal with the situation (stop, drop the weapon) they simply shoot the person trying to help.



guys, if this is what our cops are being taught these days then we all have a problem and this needs to change.

[Gogar]

Originally Posted by silverwhaletail

Our latest training update has given us the "green light" to immediately shoot anyone holding a gun, or anything that we perceive as possibly being a gun.

No more shouting, "Police, drop the weapon!" I was amazed as I watched the video. The new updates are the result of "act/react" studies. Very interesting (and sobering) information.

Sweet, maybe you'll shoot a fellow cop who decided to OC. That'll show him.

[azasadny]

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

My heartburn with this is what if a citizen happens upon a situation where a criminal is shooting or about to shoot innocent people. The citizen walks up to the area, is legally armed and pulls his weapon to deal with the situation.

Behind him are several police who just arrived and instead of saying something to properly deal with the situation (stop, drop the weapon) they simply shoot the person trying to help.

Guys, if this is what our cops are being taught these days then we ALL have a problem and this needs to change.

Remember that the CPL is for personal defense of you, your loved ones, etc... You will get into serious trouble and possibly get killed if you try to intervene in an active shooter situation. We're not law enforcement and when the LEO do arrive, they are looking for a shooter and will take action if they see anyone with a gun!

[slakjaw]

Originally Posted by azasadny

Remember that the CPL is for personal defense of you, your loved ones, etc... You will get into serious trouble and possibly get killed if you try to intervene in an active shooter situation. We're not law enforcement and when the LEO do arrive, they are looking for a shooter and will take action if they see anyone with a gun!

Problem with this is that most people want to help. I dont care anymore lets all just kill eachother.

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by azasadny

Remember that the CPL is for personal defense of you, your loved ones, etc... You will get into serious trouble and possibly get killed if you try to intervene in an active shooter situation. We're not law enforcement and when the LEO do arrive, they are looking for a shooter and will take action if they see anyone with a gun!

Sorry but do not agree. The police cannot be everywhere all the time (when seconds count, the police are minutes away) and you want us to stand around and do nothing while others die?

Aint gonna happen in our neck of the woods. Problem is that the LE need to stop this crap of "anyone with a gun gets nailed with no notice" crap. Its just not right...