Interesting in that my son's summer job this year was as an apprentice at a friend of mines independent auto repair shop.

He did great and loved it.

Work, Of all the people that live here on my street, I seem to be the only guy that washes the cars, mows the lawn & takes care of the pool. Everybody else has a service.

Another view, recently, I hired a friend's son ( home from college for the Summer ) as a general laborer. We were grading and digging out roots for a new lawn install job and we all laughed watching the "college boy" attempt to "work". It was clear he had never, ever had to really work.

Steve

73 911 T MFI Coupe, Aubergine

We stopped doing allot of things as technology advances. Technology freed up more time to do other things.

Household appliances
letter writing
power tools
wireless communication devices

This list could be endless.

It will continue to evolve. The question as much as our lifestyle has improved and things maybe easier, will it continue or will we have class warfare because only those who have will be able to afford them?

Curse you free Internet porn!

I also do my own plumbing and electrical around the house because contractors are so darn expensive.

Also change my own oil but seems like a fools errand... when Iffy lube will do it for $20.

Very interesting discussion. I think one thing to keep in mind here is that we've worked very hard to create a world of leisure. We fought wars and spent countless money on R&D to create a safe, free world where technology would provide us with more leisure time, and the money to afford luxuries. So let's think about that before we complain about it. It's not like this wasn't planned. That said, I don't think the negative consequences of this world were considered as we worked towards it, and now we're discovering what happens when we open pandora's box.

I do prefer to do things myself, within my limits of time and capabilities. For example, I do absolutely everything I can on my car, because I enjoy it, but there are times when I realize something is beyond my capabilities, so it goes into the shop. Usually that has to do with specialized tools (wheel balancing, for example). I also know I'm really bad at plumbing. I can fix a leaky faucet, but anything beyond that and I tend to make problems much worse, so I'll call a plumber.

A few weeks ago my brother in law gave us their old above-ground pool. They moved and didn't have room for it in their new yard. I hummed and hawed over actually installing it, or just tossing it on kijiji, until I realized that my only reason for now wanting to put it up was not wanting to level out a section of the backyard. I said to myself 'self, you're just being lazy - suck it up!'. I'm off to rent the rototiller this weekend.

I think we're the last generation of "doers." I remember working on cars with my dad, building out the basement, working in the yard, splitting wood etc. It's just what we did. My mom made the curtains in our house and even the bed-spreads. Food was made at home and eating out was a rare treat.

The result is that I'm another who hates to pay anyone to do anything. At some point, projects exceed my abilities, but after successfully rebuilding a Porsche engine in my garage it's hard to say something is too hard.

If I do pay someone to do work it's usually a matter of their hourly rate vs mine, but sometimes it's just time. Could I remodel a bathroom? Yes. I've done it before. Do I want to spend all of my spare time over who knows how many weeks doing that sort of thing? Not any more.

When was the last time you saw a bunch of kids playing a baseball game in a city park? I know it's a long time for me. When growing up in the 50's-60's, it seemed each day it was a ball game or to the city pool, or if raining, playing with slot cars or trains, models, things that took some thought and skills and use of hands. Today, kids are soft.

+1

The other day, my roommate came home and the door panel nearly fell off the inside of his driver's door. I asked him what the problem was and he said that he was going to take it to the dealer to have it fixed.

It took me 30 seconds with a screwdriver to re-align the plastic clips and pop the panel back on. He was ready to spend dealer rates to have that fixed. Incredible.

Small data point. My son is forced to take piano lessons (oh, the horror!). His teacher has him writing original music - and he has to write the charts (ok, that is horror). He has been writing by hand but his teacher suggested I get Sibelius running (a computer program) to make it cleaner/easier. You can play your keyboard and the computer will chart what you play. You also can point/click the notes on the screen. His teacher is in her 20's (and smokin' hot - but I digress). While I did eventually set that rig up, I pushed back a bit and said that I wanted him to chart things by hand as well. When I taught chemistry I stressed that you have to rewrite the problem and draw every step out by hand - that the act of drawing/writing helped your brain engage and problem solve. Same with charting music by hand - writing it makes a difference, even over computer charting where you type.

Many years ago I wrote about the digital transition (which I peg at 1995) and the fact that there are myriad deep consequences that we have yet to really understand. I think we're starting to see them crop up now...

My robot can beat up your robot...

Oh the irony! We worked so hard to create technology to give us free time... but technology has/is eating all all free time! Internet, smartphones, texting, and 200 channels on TV!

When I was a kid we vacationed... In Kansas where my grandparents lived... and we drove there, without video game, DVD's, or MP3 players... we had to (gasp) look out the window at the scenery or play card games.

My brothers kids grew up vacationing in Hawaii, that doesn't suck but I feel bad because they will never know what it was like to catch frogs in a drainage ditch, ride a horse without a saddle, or catch fireflies in a jar.

This is a good conversation to have. I'll go ahead and be the dissenting voice just to keep it interesting.

Last night one of our toilets finally failed. It was a cheapo that came with the house. I have already swapped out the other two myself in past years. It was a foul job that I hated. This time I am paying someone to come and do it for me. I know how to do it. I've done it before. But I'm not doing it again.

I paid someone to landscape our yard. His crew came in and planted trees and bushes in gopher baskets, ran all the irrigation and sprinkler systems, put down weed matting. I also know how to do all that and have done it before. Never again.

"Doing" changes over time. "Doing" does not always equal manual labor. I started a company once that employed highly skilled engineers. I worked 80 hours a week but I never "did" anything. My employees worked hard as well even though they were sitting in front of computers.

The hours I spend working is not "doing" as per this thread, but it pays a hell of a lot better. When I stop doing what I do, I want to relax. So I pay others to "do" things. Why is that bad? It keeps them employed and gives me leisure time and thus happiness. Sometimes I spend my free time watching TV, or rebuilding the interior of my car, or building a shed or drinking beer and playing guitar. They are all equally fine because I do them for fun. They are all "doing" as far as I'm concerned.

Meh. :cool:

http://singularityhub.com/wp-content...ime_real_2.jpg

I've read all these posts and everything has been pointed out except...

most of the non doers sure seem to know how to do everything.

Just ask them.

Yes there is a time and place for us "doers" to farm out the more tedious jobs as we become more "mature".

I paid someone to paint the interior of my front house... I have done it twice before between renters but I was busy and just didn't have the time to do it myself... my friend over charged me and did a lousy job :mad: but such is life.

Growing up I hated my dad for making me work on the family cars and helping him do repairs around the house.

Now I thank him that I can do repairs around my house without having to call someone in.

My dad is 84 and just laid a new floor in the family room at their house... but when the deck needed to be rebuilt he called in a contractor.

I spent my early working years (20's & 30's) in a high tech manufacturing environment. Surrounded by some very bright, one might even say mechanical & electronic geniuses (genii?) that worked every day with their hands, and were amply rewarded for their skills and talents. This was circa 1960 to 1980 or so.
In that time, I saw US companies go from very domestic in focus, to more international, then from manufacturing/ product focus, to marketing/service focus in most things. Saw the manufacturing core of the USA hollowed out, as nobody fought to keep those jobs here, they just moved on to "other things". I am guilty of this myself, so I understand how it can happen.
Transition from Engineering, to Marketing, to Sales, to Sales Management, to Management, etc. away you go.
I look around now, and the main manufacturing companies in the US are Japan or European based, in Automotive, Chemical, Healthcare products, etc.
Skilled labor is no longer valued, desk jobs are the norm, and it will be very hard to go backwards from here.
I hope this makes sense, I am kind of rambling, but this is an area of great concern to me these days.

At the risk of sounding like Frank Sinatra, the key is you know how to do (be do be do)...most kids today never get to the first do.

Music. My wife is a very good musician, piano and organ. We also forced the kids to play an instrument. My son is very good, but began to feel that playing in the concert band wasn't up to his standard of cool (varsity sports letter as a freshman, etc.).

My advice to him was that if he planned on driving, he may want to explore keeping his first chair in the concert band.

It now seems that the school he wants to attend values the arts as much as they value his legs.

I really believe hard work is learned either from necessity, by direction or from desire for more.

Yeah, very well said. We still do a lot of stuff just because I want my kids to learn how to do it.

I don't push them too hard on things that they should enjoy though. I used to be a professional musician but I don't force my kids to play. I play because one day I just realized that there is nothing in the world I'd rather do. On the flip side of that, my parents are really into gardening and had almost a quarter acre of just vegetable gardens, along with several smaller flower beds, paths, etc. They pushed me so hard to work on all that stuff that to this day I still don't like gardening.

I was, at least until recently, and for twenty years, in the construction industry. You may be as surprised as I was to hear and discover that marketing those careers is like pulling teeth. Kids don't want to go into the construction industry. Too dirty. The work is largely outside. It's not glamorous. They want to be video game testers, I guess. And our education system is 100% geared toward preparing kids for college. There is no part of our education system that ushers young people into construction. And here's the deal: Those jobs are great jobs. A plumber/pipefitter in my area who works full time all year would make $140,000. That's in addition to the massive benefits package and assumes no overtime is worked. OT is double the usual wage. And last but not least......construction jobs cannot be outsourced. We're going to need plumbers, electricians, equipment operators (how fun is that), carpenters, sheet metal workers, tile setters, blah blah. Somebody's going to develop those skills and they will make money hand over fist, building stuff, until they retire.

Doing is inversely proportional to government giving.

Interesting thread. I notice alot of younger folks projecting a sense of (undeserved) entitlement. I have firiends who have recently graduated college, and since their graduation have not really done anything. Their line of thinking is "I graduated college, so I deserve "x" amount of money as a starting salary" Which is true to a point, but when they "researched" the salaries of the positions which they were entering, there were posted ranges. Most thought that the "starting" salary was beneath them, instead angling for the middle of the spectrum. They didn't want to start at the bottom and work their way to a point, they wanted to start at the middle, and then can't understand how they didn't land the job with their salary(and benefit/vacation) demands.

As for "doing", one of the bigger reasons I like doing things myself is that I know it will be right and I don't have to second guess or nitpick the work of others. If I pay for a service, I can be overly critical, because I will notice things differ from how I would do it. Probably a bit OCD, as my wife tells me, but I was always taught "do it right the first time".

We just returned from the Fl Keys for an anniversary vacation. The toilet in the lower bathroom of the house in which we were staying had the tank overfill the first night. I caught it pretty qucikly and did a quick clean-up. The house is in an awesome location and is a vacation home which belongs to friends that always give us a killer deal. I could have easily just called them and they would have had a plumber come out asap to fix it. Instead, I took the tank plumbing apart, properly adjusted the float valve(it was set too high and hit the top of the tank which prevented it from shutting off the water flow, which in turn would overflow the tank), checked the seals, re-routed the flush arm so it cleared the valve/fill tube, etc. and had it back together in an hour. I just wouldn't have felt right if the owners had to call a plumber and was glad that I could do something to help them out since they always hook us up.

Sorry for the long post, but I really like "getting my hands dirty" and actually "doing".

"Lack of "doers" is a "result" of the real problem: Lack of Parenting! Been happening for 40+ years........"

AMEN!

I think it is really based on your parents...even if as a child your parents were well to do, they could have still instilled a good work ethic in the child.

My daughter is a full time college student. She also has 2 part time jobs. She can change a flat tire, change most of the bulbs on her car, check and put the right fluids in the right holes, check and put air in the tires and so on. She taped and painted her own room. She volunteers at a hospital. Her and her teammates qualified through the local, then State competitions and earned the right to go to the World Finals in the Destination Imagination(DI)Destination ImagiNation - The Organization program 3 times, placing no worse than in the top 15 in the World each time. She went to Junior College on an athletic scholarship. She has now been offered a paying position as an Assistant Coach there. 3 other High Schools also recruited her to coach.

My son is in high school and has been by my side for all types of mechanical, house and landscaping adventures. He just changed out the electric pto clutch on my riding lawn mower yesterday without any supervision. As I type this, he is on the business end of the weed eater. It will take him about 4 hours to do what I asked him to do. He knows that if he does not do a good job, he will be doing it again. I know he will do a good job, but I will still check..and he knows that also. He had a job but he quit do to unfair treatment. He had made his concerns known to the highest person at the business and things did not change, so he quit. I told him that there could be possible fall out when trying to get other jobs because he quit. He figured his best course of action would be to write a letter to the corporate office with his concerns and why he did not want to remain employed there. They reprimanded the business, he was offered his job back(he declined) and he was given a letter of recommendation from the corporate office. He also was in the Destination Imagination (DI) program. His team did make to the World Finals one time and they placed within the top 15 in the world.

There are many good, creative, driven and talented kids out there, you just have to look. The DI program is pretty much available anywhere an adult can supervise. Go see a local or State competition. If you really want to feel good about the youth in America, go to the World Finals in Knoxville. You will see around 5,000 amazing positive hard working kids.

If you have kids, the DI program is a great way for them to learn so many lifelong lessons. I have managed teams and I now am an appraiser at the local and State competitions....as is my daughter. If you have any questions about the DI program you can PM me.

meh. . same as it ever was, if you ask me. It's just that history rarely focuses on the losers.

But, carry on with your high standards not met by others...


btw, Home Depot is huge with the tag-line "More Doing"

carry on...

Whoa! Island. You're calling BS on whiners and gripers. There is hope for you, it seems.

AFA the educated entitlement argument, I have observed several young grads (friends of my stepson) take jobs at fairly low pay right out of school. But, they do expect the big bucks and are not patient as our grandparents had to be. So, they jump ship often and in less than 10 years they have jobs as VP's in smaller companies or even higher paying, lesser titled jobs in Fortune 500 companies.

So, they kind of set the tone for that thinking. Now that these kids are reaching age 40, they are pulling down some huge money relative to "starting out." I don't think that's gonna change, so I think the ones eager to get started at any salary level are the ones that are gonna see the most earning potential.

What that has to do with any of this, I don't know. :confused::cool:

I'm not a parent, so put what follows in that perspective.

When I was growing up in the 50s, children were not the center of the universe. There was stuff made for us, but activities and products for the "grown ups" took precedence. Parents didn't arrange play dates or do much -- if any -- chauffeuring of kiddies. You wanted to play in the park, you did so. Wanted to go on a "bike hike;" you did it. Mom & dad might or might not ask what you did during the day.

Today, and for the past couple decades, kids are the center of the universe. Parents sacrifice their time, attention and leisure to the service of children's issues and activities.

As a result, you hear stories in the business world of 20-somethings having little allegiance or commitment. They do not feel badly if they miss a deadline or don't show up on time. And they *will* leave when they feel it's time; not when the tasks are done. They are literally the weak link in the chain. I've heard of parents -- mothers, mostly -- showing up to ask why their kids haven't been promoted(yes, this has happened!).

Because for the past 20 years, every child has been "special." Their every whim and mood has been important. And the explosion in child-focused marketing and entertainment has made billions. The biggest expansion has been in passive entertainment. Activity like playing in the park can't be monetized the way a video game or TV show or movie can. So actual physical activity has declined overall (a generalization, but obesity rates reflect this) and the world becomes a passing array of images and sounds requiring minimal involvement. If there is no pleasure linked to the tactile activity of sawing a board or tightening a bolt, then fewer and fewer are drawn in to that type of physical interaction with the world.

We have a generation and a half of "judges" of activity -- expert observers who really aren't much good at "doing."

I ate breakfast and went outside. I came home when it started to get dark, and I noticed I was hungry. I was low-maintenance and self-entertaining. Still am.

Good point Techweenie. When I was growing up, my parents did their thing and I did mine. Everything was not revolving around ME. and I din'nt object. I was in my own world, learning and looking, without my parents judging me by my every move. I became my own person.

I think when you become the 'center of the universe' you begin to expect everything to bend around you, and may be willing to just passively let that just take place, rather than grabbing hold and doing it yourself. Happily, there always will be exceptions. But believe me, organizations like SEMA are making a major effort to attract the younger generation to pick up a wrench.

In my small town, I don't see many young people interested in cars or such. Back then, when my friend brought a '58 Triumph and put it my garage, I was hooked. The car was a junk, but it had potential, and that's all we thought about.

Tech....I wouldn't dare let my kids go to the park alone. Not these days. I wish I could, that's how I grew up, roaming all over the world. Society used to "sort out" the perverts and weirdos. Now, with the internet, they have places to hang out and find out they aren't so different. One thing affects another...

Other than tire mounting/balancing (someday I WILL have my own machines), In the last 15 years I have only paid for any type of service repair a few times.

I paid a relative to re-shingle our house (he needed the money although I had prior roofing experience).

I paid a couple times to have my airplane's avionics repaired (it is not legal for me to fix them myself and I do not have the manuals/test equipment to do the job).

I paid a neighbor to dig up a plugged tile with his backhoe.

I (my wife) paid a carpet installer.

I am proud of the fact that I have fixed/maintained/built/restored everything else myself which includes an old house on 9 acres, multiple airplanes, cars, tractors, motorcycles, ATVs, etc etc. I could not afford to have 1/10 of what I own free and clear if I was not a DIY person.

There will always be people like me who enjoy the challenge of fixing/restoring stuff, but the DIY mentality is long gone for the majority of Americans who are no longer learning basic mechanical skills at their jobs. IMO, the main reason for this is that companies have been over regulated by OSHA, EPA, labor laws etc to the point that they can no longer use manual labor to manufacture goods, so they go overseas, automate or go out of business. I see no end in sight to this trend.

this too was my childhood-
along with taking things apart to see how they worked, this eventually lead to getting them back together and working.
my brother has a son, that is kept at home and can only venture outside when accompanied by adult because there are bad people out there waiting to hurt him. this appalls me to no end.
the boy is encouraged to play video games as it is a "safe " activity

one day the boy wanted to know about firearms, I answered questions and allowed him to see, not touch a rifle. last time I spent with my nephew unsupervised

We stopped "doing" and started whining when PARF was created.

When everything became illegal.

IMO, the dangers are the same now as they were in the 50s. Only now, the TV has told us the world is a scarier place.

Kids used to fall off bikes in the 50s, but that was acceptable risk. No helmets. Kids used to fall off unsupervised playground equipment, but that was acceptable risk. Bullies beat up the smaller. weaker kids, but that was how life was. Pedophiles were out there, but kids were not expecting to be driven everywhere or taken care of by adults, so the pervs and weirdos didn't have as many tricks in their bag.

No, I don't believe the world is a scarier place than in the 50s. I think we have become more frightened as a society.

I don't remember hearing the word "scary" very much as a kid. Today, it's in every newscast.

When did we stop living?
 

When did we stop living? Most of the people I know around my age do nothing other than work 9 to 5 come home, smoke weed and go get wasted at the bar. Wash rinse and repeat day in and day out. Many of them have never traveled very far from home and almost none of them have been out of the US. They have no hobbies no dreams no plans on where they want to end up.

When did the programming start to make us good little corporate drones?

Tech, its not just the TV, its the schools too. The kids know they arent supposed to be alone...ever.

I guarantee you that pressure came from the parents. Programs about "stranger danger" have been created by demand, not by dictate.

All I'm saying is that I was brought up in the land of the free and the home of the brave, and it seems to me kids are currently being brought up in the land of limits.

Your posts have been excellent...well done.

Timidity is a creeping vine, human kudzu.