And then there's the 'Dealers Invoice' ploy. :)

A farmer had been ripped-off before by a local car dealer. One day, the car dealer told the farmer he was coming over to buy a cow. The farmer priced that cow with this invoice:

Cow dealer example

Basic Cow $499.95
Shipping and handling 35.75
Extra Stomach 79.25
Two tone exterior 142.10
Produce storage compartment 126.50
Heavy duty straw chopper 189.60
4 spigot/high output drain system 149.20
Automatic fly swatter 88.50
Genuine cowhide upholstery 179.90
Deluxe dual horns 59.25
Automatic fertilizer attachment 339.40
4 x 4 traction drive assembly 884.16
Pre-delivery wash and comb (Farmer Prep) 69.80
FARMERS SUGGESTED LIST PRICE $2843.36
Additional Farmer Markup and hay fees 300.00
TOTAL LIST PRICE (including options) 3143.36

For a cow that's worth maybe $2500.

Car Dealer Example

1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse 3 Door $18580
Destination Charge $435
Floor Mats $50
Preferred Value Package $2571
* .
SUGGESTED LIST PRICE $21636
EXTRA FEES:
.
Sales Promotion Fund $100
Dealer Advertising Association $484
Holdback $371
Dealer Flooring Assistance $185
TOTAL OF FEES:
$1140
*
*
TOTAL LIST PRICE (including options) $22776

They want you to pay $1140 extra in fees

Interesting stuff here: new car prices, dealer scams, negotiating, dealer invoice price, Car buying tips

I understand that dealers use auction prices and such to value trades. Explain this though: At the first dealer I went to (the one I walked out of) they offered me $10,000 for my trade. Dealer A offered $14500, no more. Dealer B offered $15000. Carmax offered $16000. Which is the correct value? KBB has the trade in value at $16300.

Except the context matters.

This was not a handshake deal between friends, or Pelicans, or "gentlemen farmers" as mentioned earlier in this thread.

This is buying a new car, i.e., hand to hand warfare.

The expectations, and the rules of engagement, are different.

The salesman demonstrated it when he blatantly lied on the phone. He defined the rules of engagement. From that point on, it's "game on."

What ND did was completely fair, under those rules, as defined by the salesman/dealership.

In fact, if ND would have gone through with the deal, he would have been rewarding the dealership for their bad behavior. Instead of helping make the world a better place, he would have actually helped make it worse, by making the salesman's lies and broken promises financially rewarding/successful. ND wouldn't be a "gentleman," he'd be a "sucker."

I think what happened was sweet justice. The salesman/dealership tried to punk ND, but ultimately got punked back.

I hope that when you tell your son "they all do it" or "the other guy did it first" is not an excuse for his behavior, that you also tell him everything isn't always so black and white.

What was the wholesale bluebook value?

I really don't about the car business to understand that. Maybe Cairns will explain.

Who reached for the other's hand first?

What good does it do to tear at each other's fabric?

Calm down. It's going to be just fine.

You have apparently missed the point. For some of us what matters is what we do, not what others do. When presented with someone who might act in bad faith we would avoid those people. Whos to say that if Rick had followed his word the dealer might have tried to do something else - that's why we.wouldn't deal w/those kind of people. Then this thread might be about "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me." But this about personal choices.

And a limp handshake

You haven't a clue how the car business works. None of this is correct.

Enlighten us please... and show us all how these saintly car salesmen operate.

This is a classic on being a car salesman, and what goes on:

Confessions of a Car Salesman - Edmunds.com

Don't believe everything you read on the internet. Kaisen wants us to think that car salesmen are here to help us.

Not in my world...

That could very well be true. I was going to put the disclaimer that this was years ago and I really don't know much about the business as it's run today.

The last 3 new cars that I bought was years ago. I went straight to see fleet salesmen, told them what I wanted, they thumbed through their books, jotted down numbers, added them up and gave me the price, which was non- negotiable and considerably lower than quotes from floor salesmen after haggling. That was after going through a broker to buy my wife's Celica, after which I learned that I could have gone directly to a fleet salesman, which is what he did, and saved paying a broker to do it for me.

Of course, if I'd have even approached a floor salesman at that dealership, the fleet salesman wouldn't speak to me. This was common in all local dealers who had a fleet sales program. And the fleet salesman could get me any number of other cars that were not sold at their dealership. And, to many people's surprise I found out, you didn't have to buy a 'fleet'. You could buy just one.

I once talked to a fleet salesman at a Pontiac Mazda dealer to get a price on a Mazda coupe and mentioned that I might also be looking at 944s. He said he could get me one of those as well. This may have changed since back then also. I don't know.

Perhaps you can synopsize how the car business works today?

Bait and switch is dirty. Most prices ads show a base car. By law, they must also have a stock # if the deal is for that one car only. Simply call ahead and ask if that stock # is still available.
The "go ask my manager" deal is what we called a runner/closer system. It is not automatically dishonest but it is aggravating and a perfect setup for high pressure sales. In the high volume stores, the runner is really in the dark. The runner is a trained monkey with no sales skills. They are only allowed to quote what the manager gives them. They may not have any idea what costs are. I tried working in a place like that but decided I had more skill than they wanted. I've also tried to buy a car from those places. I simply tell them I want their best price first. If I like it I buy it. If not, I walk. I warn them up front that I don't want to meet the manager or make a counter offer. Most times, I can tell the salesman knows he's stuck but he can't make his boss mad so he follows the script. When they give me their "best" high price I say "no thanks, bye". I am the buyer and I can refuse to play the game.
F&I managers are just another layer of salesman. Again, aggravating but not crooked. Are you offended when your waiter at a restaurant tries to sell you "overpriced crap that you don't need" like desserts?

Bait and switch is illegal in most states.

but not hard to do. Simply put a car in the ad that you believe will sell quickly. By the time the ad runs, the car is gone. At the time that you ordered the ad, the car was on the lot.
Some dealers will order one unit with NO options. The ad price is low but no one wants the car.

These hardline stances are a bit amusing. Everyone has a breaking point whether they choose to admit it (publicly or to themselves) or not. Is there honor in taking a loss to stand behind a deal? Yea, there certainly is... though the older I get the less I find honor in being the chump in a deal.

To those that claim they will always honor their handshake I say bull chit. You walk out of that showroom just like ND and discover you could save another $400 elsewhere....or maybe $1000...or lets move beyond monetary consequences, lets say you realize this deal will somehow put your wife or child at risk(use your imagination, it's not the scenario that's important here). The bottom line is there is a point at which you WILL break that deal, so cut with the absolutism. It's silly.

I have a hard time disparaging a guy for walking out on a deal after realizing he's been had. I don't have a hard time disparaging a guy for going into a deal leading with a lie. I say this not to excuse any action, only to put things in perspective.

So Por_Sha, I guess the question is although all these actions may be explainable on technical terms I think you would agree they are not completely honest or up front ways of doing things. Why do car dealers insist on doing this stuff? I mean it has gotten to the point of being cliche. That's why people are already on the defensive when they go into a car dealer, they KNOW all the BS shenanigans that go on.

As for the finance people, I think it goes a little beyond offering a "dessert". I would say it would be more like forcing you to wait after your meal and then go into a room to talk to someone about actually being able to sign your bill. That person proceeds to try to sell you life insurance (which is overpriced and generally not anywhere near as good as a policy you could get otherwise) as well as all sorts of packages for coupons for repeat meals at the restaurant (as long as you come on certain days and oh, by the way the prices on the coupons are actually exactly the same or more than what you would pay al a cart). Then when you decline these things and ask for your check the "finance manager" proceeds to berate you about how stupid you are for declining these very sensible offers. It's really a ridiculous practice.

Some of my favorites from prior car dealership experiences:

One place had a "dealer special" that was placed on every single car on their lot. It consisted of a window tint (at double what you would pay on the market), "vehicle lusterizing sealant", fabric protection (for $300...try a couple of cans of Scotchgard instead), "sound deadening", etc. This stuff was done on all their vehicles so there was no escaping it.

That same place offered a maintenance coupon deal from the finance manager. I actually took them up on it because it sounded like a decent deal. Reduced oil changes, free car wash and detail when you get service, etc. Guess what? The "reduced oil change" was a coupon for 20% off the cost of the oil change. Well, if you look at what that dealer charged for the oil change in the first place, it was 40% higher than say Jiffy Lube. So, you got 20% off a product that was 40% overpriced. What a deal!! Oh and the "wash and detail" was them running the car through their automated wash without even drying it.

This kind of crap is why people go into car dealerships with their guard up and radar on. It is the rule in car dealerships and not the exception. Why is it necessary to try and use dirty tricks to make a living?? I guess you could say "vote with your feet" but when every single dealer is pulling the same crap, you eventually have to hold your nose and deal with one. I will say that IF you can get a dealership to deal with you strictly over the internet and get them bidding against each other you can often times get excellent deals without having to sit in a dealership for 5 hours. The only caveat is the "bait and switch" type stuff where they will suddenly no longer have the car you were discussing over the internet when you arrive and you have to start over. Or, you get what happened to me; one quote over the phone "Yes sir, this is a firm deal. Just come in and do the paperwork." Then when you arrive the sales manager says "Well, that salesman wasn't authorized to make that offer from me so it doesn't really count."

I have eaten losses like that on the principle of my word before.
The loss is the price of the lesson i pay, so next time i am more careful and do a better job of researching my variables before i give my word on a deal.

The fact that the lesson has a price makes for a better lesson.

It's not because the other guy is a low life that i should lower myself to his level.. the Bait and Switch, well, i would have walked at that point..
I wouldn't have made any further deal.. that too comes from previous payed lessons..

I respectfully disagree. I've let prospective tenents out of legally binding contracts (i.e. like returning security deposits upon changing their mind) undoing deals that cost me a lot more than $400 on occasion. Monetary losses or gains don't dictate my actions, and I've seen my dad go to extremes more times than I can remember. Karma or whatever....I value my "word".