Don't worry if you fail, we'll pass you!

[McLovin]

So, oddly, I don't find the original post that outrageous.

One of the quotes says:

"“The message is loud and clear: Don’t worry if you don’t attend school -- we’ll just give you an easy way to make up the credit,” a staffer said. “What does that say to the kids who actually do the class work, tests, projects and homework?”

I don't think that is really a concern to any good student. A and B students are not going to be competing after high school with the "passed through D" students. Good students know they need to get good grades for college, and to prepare for the SAT/ACT. That's the reason they work hard in school.

I don't think any of them are going to say "What?? I can do nothing and get all D's, learn nothing and still get an awesome high school diploma! Great, I'll just stop studying right now!"

[Rick Lee]

I sure knew a lot of kids who had to repeat grades when I was in public school. I don't know that any of them had to do it twice. Most of them don't like it, miss their friends and don't want it to happen a second time. I think it would also get the parents' attention. I can't imagine a kid is held back a grade without plenty of calls to the parents beforehand.

The problem with passing failing students and continuing to lower standards for everyone is that it's eventually considered an honors or AP class when it's just barely keeping up with where you should be at that grade level. And that translates into the freshman year of college consisting of remedial math and English that should have been covered in high school.

At my prep school teachers gave out A's in English like they were manhole covers. I managed to get one in AP English my senior year and I almost still hold a grudge against that teacher because I got a 2 on the AP, which didn't count for college credit. Had he be a tougher grader and let me know my work was not going to cut it, I'd have taken steps to improve before the AP exam. Instead I went through the course, did all the work and figured I was doing just fine. What good is a good GPA when you're already accepted to a few colleges, but know you'll be taking freshman English with 200 kids in an auditorium? Luckily, I tested out of it when I took placement tests for the university the summer before college started.

[McLovin]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I sure knew a lot of kids who had to repeat grades when I was in public school. I don't know that any of them had to do it twice. Most of them don't like it, miss their friends and don't want it to happen a second time. I think it would also get the parents' attention. I can't imagine a kid is held back a grade without plenty of calls to the parents beforehand.

Believe me, there are hundreds of thousands of kids for which holding back a grade will do not a whit of good. They simply do not give a **** and their parents don't, either. They are not going to start studying because they fear they are going to miss their school chums.

So, assume for argument's sake that is true. What should a school system do with kids like that?

[Evans, Marv]

Mark, yes the whole system is failiing. I've seen first hand the effects of admin. egos, cronyism, favoritism, improper use of funds, etc, etc. People climb the ladder in education mostly through cooking the books to look good, outright lying, curryiing favor with those higher up, and so on. Of course the political picture in terms of government doesn't help either, and you're right the picture is very complicated - and complicated by the fact most up and down the ladder don't do what is right because it's out of step with the culture.
McLovin, passing kids through the system doesn't accomplish anything but produce disfunctional people at the end point. Kicking them out doesn't help either. In many foreign countries they hold students back until they either demonstrate progress or evenually are too old for school. Either way they end up mostly in the same place. They fit in where they can and do what they can do. Some European contries, at least in the past, gave students tests at benchmark points in the educational process. Those who demonstrated lower academic abilities/aptitudes/interests were put into vocational programs. Some on here have said trades can lead to a great life, and it's true that not everyone is supposed to be groomed for university. I've had the chance to experience both worlds and enjoy working with my hands and mind. There are other ways to do it.
Anyway I won't say anymore since I don't want to turn this into a debate of the system. That's already been done here many times.

[Rick Lee]

That's why we need a system like Germany's, where you decide around age 14 if you're going to trade school or will do your "Abitur" and finish grade 13 and then go to college. Not everyone belongs in college or even community college. And there's no shame at all in learning a trade, working with your hands and producing something. And that could lead to a properous small business, while not working for the man. Of course, you should also be welcome to be a bum for the few years it takes you figure out it's not a good longterm "strategery." If people had to face the real consequences of their decisions and behavior anymore, a lot of our problems would be solved within a generation.

[McLovin]

Originally Posted by Evans, Marv

McLovin, passing kids through the system doesn't accomplish anything but produce disfunctional people at the end point.

Some kids are simply going to be dysfunctional, no matter what the school system does.

The kids are that way largely because of very poor parenting. Parents who don't give a **** about their kids or school, who are out doing their own things, drugs, alcoholics, committing their own crimes, etc.

Unfortunately, no matter how much money is dumped into a school system, a school is always going to be primarily a place where an opportunity to learn is presented. It's never going to be a system for raising children.

I'm aware that some countries have systems where they take "non academic" kids off an academic track at around 14 or so, and put them in an apprentice type program to learn a trade. I suppose some kind of system like that may do some good here. But that's outside of the scope of what a school system administrator (like NY in the original post) can do. He needs to work in the real world, with what he has to work with.

In that real world, given the alternatives, I can certainly see a reasonable argument for passing students through, like they are doing.

[Noah930]

I wish they would extend this program to include 24 year-old German sports cars and local smog laws.

[Aurel]

I think it is important that kids get grades they do not deserve, which will empower them to borrow money for a higher education they should not qualify for. Then they will get a degree that makes them believe they are entitled to a job they cannot get. And they will get a mortgage for a house they cannot afford. See how the enslavement of people is done?