Technical (aviation) question about 9/11

[slodave]

Originally Posted by svandamme

that's no big deal, even I know how to use VOR's.
I've known how that works since MS flightsimulator 2.0.
It ain't rocket science.


Look on map, pick a VOR Station in the general vincinity
set VOR 1 to that frequency
look on map, pick VOR station 2
set VOR 2 to that frequency

Check VOR 1 and 2 for the respective angle and draw a line on the map from station 1 & 2 where the 2 lines meet, that's where you are at that time.

Close, but not quite correct.

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by slodave

Close, but not quite correct.

well it's been 20-25 or so years since i played FS2..
but i'm sure it's not hard to find the right method one on the internet

just saying, it ain't rocket science.

[slodave]

Yeah, the info is all over.

I wasn't picking on you. You just left out the most important step.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Tune, ID, Twist (center the needle). Just remember "TIT". Should be easy enough to remember, right?

This also was a modern commercial airliner - I'm sure it had more than just rudimentary steam gauge instrumentation (the kind of stuff I actually prefer). The new moving map stuff is far more complicated and if you're not familiar with that particular equipment or have been trained on it, it can be very difficult to figure out/use and navigate through. Most likely a lot of rhe displays were already showing the most useful sort of navigation information and didn't have to be fiddled with but who knows... There are some certain basic similarities from one type of "glass cockpit" MFD (multi function display) to the next, but one thing I always like about "old school" instrumentation is that it's standardized and stoopid simple. Basic instrumentation ("6-packs") and VOR/HSI displays havent changed in 50+ years. You can hop in any airplane with such a setup and figure it out instantly.

There's a lot of conspiracy theory stuff out there that says that flight WAS in fact shot down, but I've not seen anything which would convince me. Likely it went down according to the official report.

At low altitude they'd be burning a LOT of fuel - most jet engines are optimized for about 36,000' and they get very thirsty below 10,000. Don't know what altitude they were at, and since they'd deliberately hijacked long-haul flights (maximum fuel on board for maximum damage/fire potential) it may not have been a concern.

I strongly suspect a few bursts at the wing root or empennage would have taken out the a/c - even with redundant systems. A-A rounds are meant to do this kind of damage - they're not little .22s or even .50s - the rounds are huge, powerful, heavy and pack a mean whallop. I saw a static demonstration of an A10 cannon a few years ago and it was shockingly devastating - yes, different airplane and role (ground attack/anti-tank) but don't think just because something isn't a missile that it can't really ruin someone's day.

I sadly suspect that all of the pax on 93 were fully aware of what was going on, right up until the altimeter read terrain elevation.

[Jrboulder]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

steam gauge instrumentation (the kind of stuff I actually prefer). The new moving map stuff is far more complicated and if you're not familiar with that particular equipment or have been trained on it, it can be very difficult to figure out/use and navigate through. Most likely a lot of rhe displays were already showing the most useful sort of navigation information and didn't have to be fiddled with but who knows... There are some certain basic similarities from one type of "glass cockpit" MFD (multi function display) to the next, but one thing I always like about "old school" instrumentation is that it's standardized and stupid simple. Basic instrumentation ("6-packs") and VOR/HSI displays haven't changed in 50+ years. You can hop in any airplane with such a setup and figure it out instantly.

OT: Thank god someone else agrees with me. The FBO that I trained at took delivery of a G1000 172 so they did this free intro to the G1000 class and after I decided to go up with an instructor for an hour. I was pretty pi$$ed that someone took my 6 pack, replaced it with a TV, and gave me half of it back on the bottom of the panel.

I will admit that the G1000 (and other "glass cockpits) is highly capable and does a good job consolidating everything into a setup that is easier to use if you are trained on it, but isn't that part of the fun of flying; all the knobs and switches and dials and radios, most of which could be consolidated.

Jackson

[Porsche-O-Phile]

You haven't really lived until you've done single-VOR (#2 placarded "inop") intersection holding in IMC (rain pelting you, in the clag the whole time) in a clapped out Navajo with mismatched throttles and not a single thing in the aircraft newer than about 1975. And the windshield seal leaking a bit so the airstream-driven cold rain smacks you in the forehead a irregular intervals.

Ahh, good times in the life of a freight dog. I miss those airplanes!

[Jrboulder]

Sounds like fun to me!

[romad]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

You haven't really lived until you've done single-VOR (#2 placarded "inop") intersection holding in IMC (rain pelting you, in the clag the whole time) in a clapped out Navajo with mismatched throttles and not a single thing in the aircraft newer than about 1975. And the windshield seal leaking a bit so the airstream-driven cold rain smacks you in the forehead a irregular intervals.

Ahh, good times in the life of a freight dog. I miss those airplanes!

LOL another Navajo driver, flew around the great lakes.... we used to carry axes with us in case the windshield iced over. I got into flying,when I was young, goin to the Wurtsmith AFB open houses. I just loved toggle switches. The old school analog cockpits just seem more real, more impressive, something. At the time freight doggy seem like a pain in the arse, but its some of my best memories

[BE911SC]

Originally Posted by 944Larry

For some reason I think these guys had more than "very basic skills".

Yes, they had just a little more skill than "very basic skill" because yes, hand-flying a 757 or 767 at well over 300 knots can be a challenge to even an experienced transport pilot--again I speak from my own experience as a commercial transport pilot.

As for the dredging up of the story of the D.C. ANG F-16 pilots having to consider bringing down the UAL 757 headed for D.C. that morning, the news media loves to dredge up this kind of story years after the fact. Also, Heather Penney is (obviously) a female fighter pilot so that adds the sex-appeal to the story that media folks crave. Two macho male fighter pilots isn't as good a story as a pretty lady fighter pilot. Two men in F-16s isn't as good a story today, in our over-feminized culture, as a woman in an F-16 is. Not to detract from Heather Penney's achievements, of course--the media is just using her for the aforementioned reasons.

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

You haven't really lived until you've done single-VOR (#2 placarded "inop") intersection holding in IMC (rain pelting you, in the clag the whole time) in a clapped out Navajo with mismatched throttles and not a single thing in the aircraft newer than about 1975. And the windshield seal leaking a bit so the airstream-driven cold rain smacks you in the forehead a irregular intervals.

Ahh, good times in the life of a freight dog. I miss those airplanes!

Or in a DC-3 or Beech 18. You could tell the DC pilots by the wet spot on their pants when it was wet out. Always leaked when in the WX...