Fireman in a free-fire zone hit the ground

[74-911]

Yesterday right after noon several firetrucks blasted by the house with sireens blaring and stopped two houses down. Running outside I could the see house was already in full bloom and ran down to check on the owners 2 boxer dogs as I knew the owner and his wife were at work. (Another neighbor already had them out of the house and leashed away from the fire).

The back room of the house was a glassed in type sunroom with bar/pool table, etc. opening out onto a huge deck which had latticework covering most of the sides and part of the top and overlooking a pond. The deck is at least 15 years old, was bone dry. The fire had obviously started in the back of the house and it and the deck were blazing. There was a large propane gas grill at the rear of the deck.

The fireman had just got their hoses going when ammunition stored in the back of the house started cooking off. For a good 5 minutes (or so it seemed) it sounded like someone was throwing strings of Black Cat fireworks into the fire. Right in the middle of this there wwere three very loud explosions (later determined to be disposable propane cannisters going off). The two larger grill size propane bottles just flared off in a giant whoosh and fireball. Needless to say the firemen executed a fast retreat when this all happened.

End result: the house and nearly all contents a total loss. He had 4 pistols in a fireproof box that survived. One pistol and all his long guns (4 or 5 including his AK-47) total losses. All family history, photos, heirlooms, etc. are gone. The only saving grace was his 2 boxrs were OK, the garage and workshop were not attached to the house and suffered no damage. All his tools, a car and 2 Harleys and the clothes he and his wife had on are now their worldly possessions.

Cause of fire just about had to be electrical as we don't have natural gas out here in the sticks. Some real lessons to be learned here about ammo storage, propane storage and housefires.

[Zeke]

I don't know what they could have done differently if they are normal folks. Maybe a better gun safe with the ammo inside, but the loss of guns and ammo is trivial compared to the rest of the loss. I suppose you could carry your BBQ out to the middle of nowhere when not in use, but what are the chances?

Now on to electrical. Something had to be drawing a load near the back or this was more of a fluke then any averages can show. I wonder what they will find in the investigation. Be sure to let us know when you find out.

Good work thinking of the dogs.

[GH85Carrera]

I would think storing propane indoors would be so crazy no one would. I guess not. Does he store his gasoline in there as well?

The local propane & gas grill company has a fit when a customer walks into the showroom with a empty cylinder. I was in there looking at a grill and some dummy that ignored all the signs that said don't bring any cylinder inside came walking in. It was almost comical.

[red-beard]

Any idea what year the house was built?

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

I would think storing propane indoors would be so crazy no one would. I guess not. Does he store his gasoline in there as well?

The local propane & gas grill company has a fit when a customer walks into the showroom with a empty cylinder. I was in there looking at a grill and some dummy that ignored all the signs that said don't bring any cylinder inside came walking in. It was almost comical.

Well, the BBQ propane was out on the deck AFA I can surmise. The disposable canisters, ie, camping fuel was not. I have several of those in my garage. If my garage is on fire and those explode, it was a goner anyway.

However, I may move them. No need to add insult to injury.

[PorscheGAL]

Lesson Ammo and spoons should be stored in a fire proof safe. Could have been really dangerous for the firefighters. Not to mention, safes are a great place to store important documents and family pictures.

[sammyg2]

For refference, one cubic foot of liquified gas (like propane or LPG) expands rather quickly into approximately 4400 cubic feet of fire ball.

They call it a bleve.

[bivenator]

Glad to hear it was just a loss of property, but very sorry for the loss of memories.

I had a lot (large box) of fireworks in my garage when it went up. They were whistling and popping for a good five minutes. My propane tank never expoded but was in the bottom of a pile of burning lumber.

[craigster59]

This was in the local paper this A.M.
Veteran gets 5 years for backyard ammo dump - LA Daily News

[Laneco]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

For refference, one cubic foot of liquified gas (like propane or LPG) expands rather quickly into approximately 4400 cubic feet of fire ball.

They call it a bleve.

BLEVE - one of my favorite seldom-used words!!!

"Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion"

angela

[patssle]

He had 4 pistols in a fireproof box that survived. All family history, photos, heirlooms, etc. are gone

Priorities...

[74-911]

Originally Posted by Zeke

Now on to electrical. Something had to be drawing a load near the back or this was more of a fluke then any averages can show. I wonder what they will find in the investigation. Be sure to let us know when you find out.

Good work thinking of the dogs.

The fire marshalls were supposed to be out today to investigate the cause although the local fire chief didn't think they had much chance due to the extensive damage. Will definitely post if and when they determine a cause. Owner does not know of anything in that part of the house that pulled enough current to do start a fire but who knows?

The owner (with the usual 20/20 hindsight) is kicking himself for not having a fireproff safe for the guns and other valuables. One of those he had been intending to do but just never got around to it .... it's a little late now however.

The house was built in late 70's to early 80's.

The propane bottles were stored in a wooden cabinet at the far back of the deck, as far from the house as you could get. Nothing (but the ammo) was stored in the house.

Actually, the real eye-opener for all of us who live out here is: although the local FD got out here in just a couple of minutes, they had a real problem with water in that we are out of the city limits and the closest fire hydrant is over a mile away. Two other local FD's had to send their tankers to help shuttle water to the pumper trucks. Twice the pumpers essentially ran out of water and had to wait for the next tanker to get back. Not much we can do about this but it really hit home.

[VINMAN]

A number of yrs ago, we had a fire in a one story ranch, I was first in on one of the handlines, on the nozzle with another guy backing me up . One of the areas of fire was a small room in back of the house. very heavy fire, extreme amount of heat. Got in, stood in the doorway, knocked the fire down. No biggie.
Little while later vented out the smoke and went back in to do overhaul. Walked back in the room, looked to my right and there on the wall right next to the door at eye level, was a rifle and a shotgun sitting in a horizontal gun rack with both muzzles towards the door. Needless to say I just about **** my pants. Even more so when we found out that they were both loaded. and charred pretty bad. That shook me up a bit. Also on the rack was a few boxes of ammo. Amazingly nothing had lit off. Would not have been a pretty sight.

[Jim Bremner]

My ammo stash is spread out. some in the safe, some in the garage, some at one end of the warehouse and some at the other end.

Family pics and negatives are in the safe as well

[red-beard]

One of my buddies lived up in Romana, between San Diego and Temecula. In 2003 there were a lot of fires all around. He had to evacuate, leaving behind all sorts of firearms, ammunition and reloading supplies. The house next door burned down and he was very lucky that the fire department was able to put out his garage catching fire!

[Tishabet]

Is loose ammo lighting off really that dangerous? I.e. Doesnt the ammo need to go off in the enclosed space of a breech for the bullet to really get moving due to the gases forcing it down the barrel?

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by Laneco

BLEVE - one of my favorite seldom-used words!!!

"Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion"

angela

Luckily I've never seen one in person, but I've trained on them too many times and seen plenty of videos. Scary.
About 800 feet from my office at work we have several propane spheres and LPG "bullets", if one of them went BLEVE the estimated kill zone radius is 1500 feet.

Fortunately that type of thing gives plenty of warning to exacuate.

If you know about BLEVE then you probably know about storage tank boil over? Them er pretty scary too.

[sammyg2]

Boil-overs can happen when a storage tank of liquid petroleum product catches fire. It burns for a long time, with flames on top of the tank where the vapor layer is.
But, ..... if the tank has water in it on the bottom, either from settling or from careless fire-fighting efforts, the fire level eventually works down to the point where it heats the water layer enough for it to flash to steam, all the sudden-like.

That violently ejects the flaming oil or gasoline or whatever from the tank, up to a quarter mile up in the air and it literally rains fire for square miles. Don't ever want to be close to one of those.



Here;s a decent write-up of one that happened in the UK:

http://www.aria.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/ressources/fd_6077_milford_haven_val_24_07_08_uk_ah.pdf

At midnight, the tank overflowed causing the first “classical boilover”3 that
resulted in a fireball with a radius of 90m and a flame attaining 150m in height. A
large quantity of fiery crude oil was ejected spreading the fire to the containment
dike, destroying most of the fire fighting equipment and forcing the rescue team
to stop operations. Six fire-fighters sustained mild injuries during their retreat.
On 31 August at 2.10 am, a less intense second boilover occurred and the
connection between the shell and the tank bottom gave in at four points
releasing fiery crude oil into the dike. The bund wall over 5m high could however
retain all the matter released. The thermal insulating material of the distillate
tanks in the adjacent containment dikes caught fire and one of the tanks gave in,
spreading the fire to the second containment dike. This fire was brought under
control by the rescue team in 30 minutes.
.......
The operation called for 150 firemen, 50 fire engines, 44 fire-fighting pumps, 6 aerial platforms and 70 foam tanker
trucks. More than two days and 765 m³ of foam compound diluted at 3% and 6% were required to extinguish the fire. A
backup of firemen from the neighbouring counties helped relay the teams exhausted due to the heat and length of the
operation.

[sammyg2]

On fire:



Boil-over ejection, the fireball is over 200 feet wide.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by Tishabet

Is loose ammo lighting off really that dangerous? I.e. Doesnt the ammo need to go off in the enclosed space of a breech for the bullet to really get moving due to the gases forcing it down the barrel?

That's the theory, but I'd just as soon not be in the near vicinity. If you consider that the mass of the bullet in some cases is greater than the casing, it would be the casing coming at you.

Either way, you don't need to go into hand combat with exploding rounds. Maybe contemporary fire fighter's gear can withstand. They seem to have Nomex and equivalents laced with Kevlar and polycarbonate masks.