Low Cost Natural Gas Add on for Cars

[hardflex]

I was watching Mad Max last night and they were talking of natural gas powered cars. Then found this video of an add on kit for late model cars. Essentially cut your fuel costs in half or more as the price of gas goes up. It's nice to know there is an option.

[Chocaholic]

Just watched the entire video. Makes you wonder why the auto industry doesn't offer this as an option instead of battery hybrid. Of course, if they were to do so, it would only be a matter of time before natural gas prices are raised to match gas prices. Billions more to the bottom line as a bonus to the petroleum industry.

Wonder how an engine designed for gasoline will adapt to natural gas (rings, valves, etc)?

[1990C4S]

Natural gas is poor choice. Propane will liquify at lower pressure and store far more energy.

[J P Stein]

Propane is more than twice as expensive as NG. How much more energy does it store?

[island911]

wait wait . . gasoline will liquify at even lower pressure and store far more energy. . . .

[island911]

Originally Posted by Chocaholic

... Makes you wonder why the auto industry doesn't offer this as an option instead of battery hybrid. ..

Actually, iirc they do offer some fleet vehicles that run on CNG.

CNG is simply just a shorter chain hydrocarbon than gasoline. And, people have been making adaptor kits for decades.

With all of the NG found in the US (it's huge) and the recent (last 3 years/political) shut down of oil drilling permits, NG is looking good. ...well, except for all of the enviro-whining about fracturing rock thousands of feed down - won't someone think of the poor rock?

[jyl]

Talk to a cabbie with a NG cab sometime. Issue is limited range and very (very!) few refueling stations. Like about 20 in Los Angeles County, many in inconvenient locations (feel like going to Compton at night to fill up?). I am not sure there are any in Portland.

The issue with fracking is not the rock. It is the groundwater aquifers - drinking water etc - and the fact that the oil & gas industry will not disclose the contents of their proprietary fracking fluids. When a community's groundwater is contaminated, it will be hard to trace it to a particular driller, and those drillers are organized to limit corporate liability. The cost of cleaning a town's water supply will be paid by taxpayers.

[island911]

Thanks jyl.

So, we have two underground resorces; fuel for a nation (and beyond) and underground water -not lot, but enough for some towns. . .for a while, maybe.

My guess is that the energy available will eclipse the water table /purity concerns. That is, it doesn't take that much energy to process (clean) all of the (potentially) contaminated water supply for the fracking area.

But of course, politicians might scare people into believing that progress must be halted. ...else they will all be poisoned. ..and die. (read: do it my way and you will live forever. now go wash your clothes on those rocks. . . .but don't get the river dirty. ..do you have a permit?)

[Burkie61]

Actually just talked to a cabbie yesterday in Vegas and he is on NG and loves it. Much cheaper to run and said he noticed no change in driving over gas....seemed elated by the change. Many taxis are limited to a certain area of the city for pick ups...so they can plan there filling pretty well...so i guess it depends where you live..

We ran propane in our police vehicles...bit of a nightmare in the cold of Calgary...it didn't last long.

[Zeke]

A large number fleet of city owned vehicles in Long Beach are NG. They've been adding NG cars and trucks since the middle of the last decade.

[jyl]

If the deal were that
- the oil & gas industry will pay for cleanup of all groundwater contamination due to fracking
- without decades of costly legal and political battles over liability and damages and collecting from a solvent party
- that cost taxpayers billions via EPA, DOJ, state AGs etc
- and always leave some plaintiffs exhausted and without remedy

Then that might be fine.

But it is not going down like that. The industry is doing its best to extract the gas and leave the cleanup behind. Refusing to disclose the chemical signatures of their fluids. Denying that any contamination is possible. Denying that any people are ill, any property devalued, any wells unusable. Using their political influence to edit reports and block action.

In 15 years, when the scope of the contamination is clear, we'll find that many of the drill rigs were operated by companies that no longer exist and the lawyers will make hundreds of millIions fighting over corporate responsibility. The taxpayer will be pouring tens of billions into superfund cleanups. Someone will be laughing all the way to the bank.

I spent most of a decade litigating Superfund groundwater and soil contamination cases in the L.A. basin, so I know something about what I'm talking about. In most cases, my clients were able to evade liability, or at worst pay, several decades after the polluting action, a fairly minuscule percent of the time-value-of-money adjusted profits they'd made. I was rather well paid for my efforts :-)

Thanks jyl.



So, we have two underground resorces; fuel for a nation (and beyond) and underground water -not lot, but enough for some towns. . .for a while, maybe.



My guess is that the energy available will eclipse the water table /purity concerns. That is, it doesn't take that much energy to process (clean) all of the (potentially) contaminated water supply for the fracking area.



But of course, politicians might scare people into believing that progress must be halted. ...else they will all be poisoned. ..and die. (read: do it my way and you will live forever. now go wash your clothes on those rocks. . . .but don't get the river dirty. ..do you have a permit?)

[RWebb]

BTW - there is one co. that discloses the chemicals they use -- only one, IIRC

also, you forgot the heavy wt. of the NG setup

I think the best use of NG is in stationary power plants as a transitional and rel. clean fuel to replace as many coal fired plants as we can; and for backup power for wind turbines, centralized PV or liquid Na steam plants, etc.

[porsche4life]

We have a CNG/ pump gas bifuel chevy pickup. It was a factory quantum conversion. Our tank of CNG is good for 200miles, and filling stations are plentiful in OK. Fuel is 1.85/gge for most 3600psi fillups and a few places have 3000psi fills for 1.28....


We are looking at selling our megacab, and buying a 4dr CNG Chevy....

[Taz's Master]

Originally Posted by jyl

If the deal were that
- the oil & gas industry will pay for cleanup of all groundwater contamination due to fracking
- without decades of costly legal and political battles over liability and damages and collecting from a solvent party
- that cost taxpayers billions via EPA, DOJ, state AGs etc
- and always leave some plaintiffs exhausted and without remedy

Then that might be fine.

But it is not going down like that. The industry is doing its best to extract the gas and leave the cleanup behind. Refusing to disclose the chemical signatures of their fluids. Denying that any contamination is possible. Denying that any people are ill, any property devalued, any wells unusable. Using their political influence to edit reports and block action.

In 15 years, when the scope of the contamination is clear, we'll find that many of the drill rigs were operated by companies that no longer exist and the lawyers will make hundreds of millIions fighting over corporate responsibility. The taxpayer will be pouring tens of billions into superfund cleanups. Someone will be laughing all the way to the bank.

I spent most of a decade litigating Superfund groundwater and soil contamination cases in the L.A. basin, so I know something about what I'm talking about. In most cases, my clients were able to evade liability, or at worst pay, several decades after the polluting action, a fairly minuscule percent of the time-value-of-money adjusted profits they'd made. I was rather well paid for my efforts :-)

Why will it take 15 years to determine the scope? The marcellus shale formation is beneath the world's earliest drilling sites, and fracking has been used there for a long time. Wouldn't the contamination of groundwater be more significant for the shallower deposits (much closer to the groundwater supplies)? Since the shale is below the salt layer wouldn't the lack of salt contammination provide an indication that frackwater contamination would be unlikely?

[vonsmog]

The best set up is CNG with diesel! You use both the CNG and the diesel at the same time. I have a friend with this on his duramax and he is getting 45-50 mpg out of the diesel side. And since he has his own gas well and compressor, the natural gas is free, other than the electric for the compressor. We are putting a system on one of his Unimogs and have hopes of at least 30 mpg on the diesel side. If it works, I'll be adding it to one of my Unimog trucks as well. I will have to get a compressor, as he is a three hour ride away, otherwise I could fill for free as well!

[porsche4life]

Von, the issue with the compressors is the purchase price and the rebuild cost. They have to be serviced regularly.....

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by Chocaholic

Wonder how an engine designed for gasoline will adapt to natural gas (rings, valves, etc)?

I don't know about modern high compression engines. Carbureted engines worked very well on CNG and propane. They lasted longer, with less oil contamination and much cleaner combustion chambers. They needed higher compression (10.5:1) to keep the HP on par with gasoline, but that's no problem as CNG has a higher octane rating and handles high compression well.

[Laneco]

The company I work for has several CNG delivery trucks. Biggest problem is finding a high enough pressure pump at the filling location.

They are converted by Roush.

Yeah...THAT Roush.

angela

[GH85Carrera]

This looks VERY interesting to me.

I drive less than 50 miles a day on average. Many days I only drive just 20 miles. I have 2 CNG stations within a 3 miles of my house and one within a mile of my office.

I talked to a local company that does conversions. They wanted 8 grand to make my El Camino a dual fuel system. That just does not make economic sense. One or two grand does make very good sense. I expect gasoline to be 4 or 5 bucks a gallon very soon.

Thanks for the post!

[DanielDudley]

You contaminate an aquifer, it stays poisoned for very, very long time. The gas will be gone in a few short years.