Airplane Ownership Costs & Cost Sharing?

[onewhippedpuppy]

I posted on here last fall about the death of my grandfather, a great man that was a huge influence on my life. One of the things that he gave me was a love of all things aviation, he's the reason I ended up with an Aerospace Engineering degree and working at an airplane company. Fast forward to today, and I'm told that I might have the opportunity to inherit his 1968 V35 Beechcraft Bonanza. In fact my grandmother is adamant that I get it. It would be a dream come true for me, but I'm worried that I can't afford it.

What can I expect to pay annually for the care and feeding of an older Bonanza? It's a low time airframe and I think the last engine overhaul was relatively recent, so near term it would mostly be operating cost, insurance, hangar, annuals, and flight time. I know hangars just outside of ICT can be had for about $100/mo, but that's really all I know. I am currently NOT a pilot, so I would be either using the Bonanza or trading time for hours in another plane to get my license.

Second question, has anyone ever been involved in an airplane partnership? I'm interested in learning more about this path, because sharing the costs might be my only option to making this work. I work in a flight test department with a number of incredibly qualified pilots, so I could likely find partners without too much trouble.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Another question that I forgot to ask (Tim will know this one) - how much work can I legally do on my plane without an A&P?

[slodave]

Hold on to your pocketbook! It will not be cheap.

[dmcummins]

Ive been working on my PPL and have also been looking at the older Bonanza's. It looks like I'll have around $7,000 just in getting that. I priced insurance for a Mooney, and it was $2,350 for a student, no solo till 15hrs dual, no passengers till 50hrs in model. And that was for only a $30,000 value.

The Bonanza is going to burn around 12-14 gal/hr. Annuals, from what Ive checked will be around $1,500, then add what needs fixed.

I figure that if I buy a older Bonanza I need to be prepared to spend around $15,000 per year and have $30,000 or so put back in case something breaks. Or around $200 per hour.

You can do maintenance on your plane, oil changes, wheel bearings, ect. But not much else.

[jwasbury]

No experience with airplane partnerships, but I am in a boat partnership (50/50 on a 32' Sloop docked in New York Harbor). The common wisdom in the boating world is that partnerships never work, but my experience is the opposite. We split costs, never quarrel over who gets to use the boat (most often we invite each other when we plan to take her out), and ultimately the boat gets sailed more often which is a good thing...too many sad boats that never leave the slip, and ours is one of the most sailed on the harbor.

I think the key to success in this kind of partnership is choosing the right partner (kind of like marriage). Given that this plane has a special place in your heart I'd say that makes the partner choice even more critical. I say go for it. If it is the only way you can make it happen, you KNOW what you have to do.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Awesome information, thanks! Was the $2350 insurance annual? If so that's cheaper than expected.

[dmcummins]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Awesome information, thanks! Was the $2350 insurance annual? If so that's cheaper than expected.

Yes, I got the quote through AOPA, it was the only quote I got. But that was only for a $30,000 hull value, million liability. A 1968 Bonanza is going to be worth more than that. But it would be cheaper if you already had the PPL and some hours. I don't plan to buy anything till I get my license. I'm at 30 hrs now and figure I'll just stick with the 172 till I'm finished. I would think adding high performance and complex would add to much time at this point for me.

Around here the cheapest hangers run $200/month. Fuel was $5.30 last I looked. You can check out Beechtalk. They can probably answer more of your questions.

[Seahawk]

What a unique opportunity, Matt. 1968 V35 Beechcraft Bonanza is one hell of an airplane.

I know you'll do you homework and figure out the reasonable path forward.

Again, what a wonderful, unique opportunity and a loving gesture from your Grandmother.






http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=1228561

[cashflyer]

The V35 is a great plane. They are sturdy and durable, and usually hold resale pretty well. It is a fast, high performance, complex airplane. It is a plane that requires an attentive pilot.

For insurance, please call Barbara Doss @ CS&A. 800-999-1109
She has year after year, on multiple types of airplanes, been able to give me the best rates - beating AOPA by a large margin.

Regarding maintenance, there is a good bit you can do as the pilot. What follows is excerpted from Part 43.

Sec. 43.3 Persons authorized to perform maintenance, preventive maintenance,
rebuilding, and alterations.....
..... (g) The holder of a pilot certificate issued under Part 61 may perform
preventive maintenance on any aircraft owned or operated by that pilot which
is not used under Part 121, 127, 129, or 135.

Sec. 43.7 Persons authorized to approve aircraft, airframes, aircraft
engines, propellers, appliances, or component parts for return to service
after maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration.....
..... (f) A person holding at least a private pilot certificate may approve an
aircraft for return to service after performing preventive maintenance under
the provisions of Sec. 43.3(g).

FAR 43, Appendix A.....
..... (c) Preventive maintenance. Preventive maintenance is limited to the
following work, provided it does not involve complex assembly operations:
(1) Removal, installation, and repair of landing gear tires.
(2) Replacing elastic shock absorber cords on landing gear.
(3) Servicing landing gear shock struts by adding oil, air, or both.
(4) Servicing landing gear wheel bearings, such as cleaning and greasing.
(5) Replacing defective safety wiring or cotter keys.
(6) Lubrication not requiring disassembly other than removal of
nonstructural items such as cover plates, cowlings, and fairings.
(7) Making simple fabric patches not requiring rib stitching or the removal
of structural parts or control surfaces. In the case of balloons, the making
of small fabric repairs to envelopes (as defined in, and in accordance with,
the balloon manufacturers' instructions) not requiring load tape repair or
replacement.
(8) Replenishing hydraulic fluid in the hydraulic reservoir.
(9) Refinishing decorative coating of fuselage, balloon baskets, wings tail
group surfaces (excluding balanced control surfaces), fairings, cowlings,
landing gear, cabin, or cockpit interior when removal or disassembly of any
primary structure or operating system is not required.
(10) Applying preservative or protective material to components where no
disassembly of any primary structure or operating system is involved and
where such coating is not prohibited or is not contrary to good practices.
(11) Repairing upholstery and decorative furnishings of the cabin, cockpit,
or balloon basket interior when the repairing does not require disassembly of
any primary structure or operating system or interfere with an operating
system or affect the primary structure of the aircraft.
(12) Making small simple repairs to fairings, nonstructural cover plates,
cowlings, and small patches and reinforcements not changing the contour so as
to interfere with proper air flow.
(13) Replacing side windows where that work does not interfere with the
structure or any operating system such as controls, electrical equipment,
etc.
(14) Replacing safety belts.
(15) Replacing seats or seat parts with replacement parts approved for the
aircraft, not involving disassembly of any primary structure or operating
system.
(16) Trouble shooting and repairing broken circuits in landing light wiring
circuits.
(17) Replacing bulbs, reflectors, and lenses of position and landing
lights.
(18) Replacing wheels and skis where no weight and balance computation is
involved.
(19) Replacing any cowling not requiring removal of the propeller or
disconnection of flight controls.
(20) Replacing or cleaning spark plugs and setting of spark plug gap
clearance.
(21) Replacing any hose connection except hydraulic connections.
(22) Replacing prefabricated fuel lines.
(23) Cleaning or replacing fuel and oil strainers or filter elements.
(24) Replacing and servicing batteries.
(25) Cleaning of balloon burner pilot and main nozzles in accordance with
the balloon manufacturer's instructions.
(26) Replacement or adjustment of nonstructural standard fasteners
incidental to operations.
(27) The interchange of balloon baskets and burners on envelopes when the
basket or burner is designated as interchangeable in the balloon type
certificate data and the baskets and burners are specifically designed for
quick removal and installation.
(28) The installations of anti-misfueling devices to reduce the diameter of
fuel tank filler openings provided the specific device has been made a part
of the aircraft type certificate data by the aircraft manufacturer, the
aircraft manufacturer has provided FAA-approved instructions for installation
of the specific device, and installation does not involve the disassembly of
the existing tank filler opening.
(29) Removing, checking, and replacing magnetic chip detectors.
(30) The inspection and maintenance tasks prescribed and specifically
identified as preventive maintenance in a primary category aircraft type
certificate or supplemental type certificate holder's approved special
inspection and preventive maintenance program when accomplished on a primary
category aircraft provided:
(i) They are performed by the holder of at least a private pilot
certificate issued under part 61 who is the registered owner (including co-
owners) of the affected aircraft and who holds a certificate of competency
for the affected aircraft (1) issued by a school approved under Sec.
147.21(e) of this chapter; (2) issued by the holder of the production
certificate for that primary category aircraft that has a special training
program approved under Sec. 21.24 of this subchapter; or (3) issued by
another entity that has a course approved by the Administrator; and
(ii) The inspections and maintenance tasks are performed in accordance with
instructions contained by the special inspection and preventive maintenance
program approved as part of the aircraft's type design or supplemental type
design.
(31) Removing and replacing self-contained, front instrument panel-mounted
navigation and communication devices that employ tray-mounted connectors that
connect the unit when the unit is installed into the instrument panel,
(excluding automatic flight control systems, transponders, and microwave
frequency distance measuring equipment (DME)). The approved unit must be
designed to be readily and repeatedly removed and replaced, and pertinent
instructions must be provided. Prior to the unit's intended use, and
operational check must be performed in accordance with the applicable
sections of part 91 of this chapter.
(32) Updating self-contained, front instrument panel-mounted Air Traffic
Control (ATC) navigational software data bases (excluding those of automatic
flight control systems, transponders, and microwave frequency distance
measuring equipment (DME)) provided no disassembly of the unit is required
and pertinent instructions are provided. Prior to the unit's intended use, an
operational check must be performed in accordance with applicable sections of
part 91 of this chapter.



Now that I've shown you what work you are allowed to perform on an airplane here is the section that defines the "quality" of your work by establishing "performance rules".

Sect. 43.13 Performance rules (general).

(a) Each person performing maintenance, alteration, or preventive maintenance on an aircraft, engine, propeller, or appliance shall use the methods, techniques, and practices prescribed in the current manufacturer's maintenance manual or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness prepared by its manufacturer, or other methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator, except as noted in § 43.16. He shall use the tools, equipment, and test apparatus necessary to assure completion of the work in accordance with accepted industry practices. If special equipment or test apparatus is recommended by the manufacturer involved, he must use that equipment or apparatus or its equivalent acceptable to the Administrator.

(b) Each person maintaining or altering, or performing preventive maintenance, shall do that work in such a manner and use materials of such a quality, that the condition of the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance worked on will be at least equal to its original or properly altered condition (with regard to aerodynamic function, structural strength, resistance to vibration and deterioration, and other qualities affecting airworthiness).



So, you can see from the above regulations, maintenance and preventive maintenance are two different things. Pilots may not perform maintenance without an A&P license, they may however, perform the preventive maintenance as specified above.

[Joeaksa]

Easy answer.

Find someone in the ICT area you know and trust who has an A&P and partner with them.

There is no way that I would not take your Grandmother up on this, its meant to be.

Joe A

[Dantilla]

I'm currently in my second partnership in a Bonanza.

Both have been great experiences, but the partner is far more important than the airplane!
In both cases, an existing owner asked me if I wanted to buy half of the airplane.
The partnerships have worked because:
-Neither one of us uses the airplane for business, so scheduling is flexible.
-We agree on maintenance issues- Fix it!!
-We are both very competent pilots, and treat the airplane well.

We don't schedule in advence. Go to the airport, and if the airplane is there, go fly. If I do have something scheduled, one quick phone call to the partner insures the airplane will be waiting for me.

I don't like the idea of posting ads on Craigslist offering a partnership. I like the idea of hanging around the airport and asking a guy (or gal) that you would trust with your airplane. Giving keys to your airplane to a complete stranger doesn't make sense to me.

The Bonanza is an absolutely wonderful airplane. Insurance will be expensive until you have plenty of retractable time and/or an instrument rating.

When I first considered getting an airplane, I asked a mechanic I highly trust, and still use, about buying a Mooney-

"Get a Bonanza"

"But they're expensive"

"All airplanes are expensive. Get a good one"

Kind of hard to argue with his logic......

[onewhippedpuppy]

Thanks all. Here's a few pictures of the actual plane, with some ugly guy in it. My daughter is trying to be a pilot (I can dream), and a dual yoke conversion would be necessary to use it for training.

[cashflyer]

"All airplanes are expensive. Get a good one"
+1

I will also add that some early V tails had a high-speed flutter issue with the controls. This led to a fix that involved a modification to the ruddervator surfaces. Your plane looks like it has been kept up, so it likely has this mod, but check just to be sure.

Also, find out why February 3, 1959 is significant for V-tail owners.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by Dantilla

I'm currently in my second partnership in a Bonanza.

Both have been great experiences, but the partner is far more important than the airplane!
In both cases, an existing owner asked me if I wanted to buy half of the airplane.
The partnerships have worked because:
-Neither one of us uses the airplane for business, so scheduling is flexible.
-We agree on maintenance issues- Fix it!!
-We are both very competent pilots, and treat the airplane well.

We don't schedule in advence. Go to the airport, and if the airplane is there, go fly. If I do have something scheduled, one quick phone call to the partner insures the airplane will be waiting for me.

I don't like the idea of posting ads on Craigslist offering a partnership. I like the idea of hanging around the airport and asking a guy (or gal) that you would trust with your airplane. Giving keys to your airplane to a complete stranger doesn't make sense to me.

The Bonanza is an absolutely wonderful airplane. Insurance will be expensive until you have plenty of retractable time and/or an instrument rating.

When I first considered getting an airplane, I asked a mechanic I highly trust, and still use, about buying a Mooney-

"Get a Bonanza"

"But they're expensive"

"All airplanes are expensive. Get a good one"

Kind of hard to argue with his logic......

If you don't mind me asking, what does it cost you annually splitting the costs 50%?

[widgeon13]

Right up front, you will need a dual yoke for training unless you train in another aircraft. That will run 3K. It does look like a nice plane.

[9dreizig]

You'll be fine as long as you're not a Doctor ;-)

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by widgeon13

Right up front, you will need a dual yoke for training unless you train in another aircraft. That will run 3K. It does look like a nice plane.

Yup, I was planning on that. I found $3k with a quick Google search as well, though I'm told that you can do it for significantly less by using a used part. Apparently the dual yoke from a number of Beech products bolt directly into a Bonanza.

[widgeon13]

Originally Posted by 9dreizig

You'll be fine as long as you're not a Doctor ;-)

Yes sir, V35, the doctor killer.

[kaisen]

I can't say much about costs, but I know my parents have "sold" two of their three airplanes fractionally since they weren't using them as much as their primary plane. It was/is a win/win for everyone involved and kept the planes from rotting in the hangar. They need the annuals whether they move or not.

Perhaps you can offer a fractional with a buy-back provision when you're ready to keep it for yourself. Like all contracts, consult a good attorney.

[cashflyer]

If you're going to buy a yoke, buy a Cygnet. No ADs on it, afaik. $2950 brand new.
Or if you don't want to keep a dual yoke, you can rent one for the training. $650 total for 3 months rental from New Kent Aviation.