Those are, AFAIK, cases where the person shot an intruder NOT realizing he was a police officer, and while he was presumably in fear for his life.

The Indiana law, as far as the average person understands it - and even persons who are well more informed than the average, like our red - says you may kill someone who you know to be a police officer, and for no other reason than because he is entering your property without (you think) legal warrant or cause (like the average person knows what that is).

That is what is ridiculous about it.

We had that happen a week ago in Pasadena. Cops assumed a teen burglar was armed because the guy who wanted a police response lied. They shot the kid dead. He of course was not armed. Now the clever homeowner who wanted the improved police response is facing manslaughter charges and likely a lawsuit by the kid's family.

These laws like the Indiana law and the 'stand your ground' laws in multiple states give all of the power to the "state of mind" of the shooter. So in Indiana, a homeowner who can convince a jury that he didn't believe LEO self-identification and shot, could be exonerated.

We've had plenty of instances of police breaking in to the wrong house and killing people (or the right house for the wrong reason*), but the Indiana law may go too far the other way.

* Cops Taser, Kill Elderly Ex-Marine Whose Life-Aid Alert Called 9-1-1 - WTKR

Has the Arizona case where they shot the homeowner and then let him die in the house been resolved yet?

It may. But the law is reiterating our basic rights. Police need to have a warrant to enter your house without permission. If they break in without just cause without a warrant and you defend yourself, are you wrong? I say no.

One problem is, by breaking into your house, you cannot be sure they are actually police. There have been cases of drug gangs dressing as police and breaking in and then killing people. We also have a case in Arizona where the police broke into a house and the homeowner did not fire, but they killed him. Well, actually, they shot him and then let him die alone in the house and wouldn't let him be treated. He was military reserve recently back from the Middle east.

maybe

OTOH, the Founders were very concerned about Redcoats barging in and doing whatever they wanted in private homes...

some police are not acting as they should - hit Gnews search on "Danzinger" for just one example; I may post another later

He should of told them they were black, sorry but that does seem to motivate them based on my own personal experiences.

It's big in rural Ohio too. They call it hillbilly heroin. :D

We are backsliding from a nation of laws to a nation of legal anarchy. I predict one effect will be a greater tendency on the part of LEO to shoot first and discover the facts later - pretty much what the legalized murder laws give civilians free rein to do.

ya know when the poo went down in florida w/zimmerman, my exact 1st thought here was this was not a "fear for yer life" moment. it didnt add up at all. this guy from all of my training did not have the "fear for his life", moment. when bad ju ju happens you have to make EVERY reasonable effort to remove yourself from bad ju ju. THEN and ONLY THEN if the threat continues and you feel "IN FEAR OF IMMINENT BODILY HARM OR DEATH " can you use deadly force to stop the attack.


this clown was looking for trouble plain and simple. you cannot here in az. and probably all other 49 states go LOOKING FOR TROUBLE, which appears to have happened.


the bottom line here the TROUBLE MUST COME TOWARDS YOU, then you must attempt an escape, if all else fails its BOOM BOOM OUT GO DA LIGHTS!


we in az. even have a law allowing anyone to THWART the ONCOMING trouble by revealing a weapon. because any sane individual when seeing a weapon should go the other way and stop the crap. but as we all know, there are the insane/the ones with a death wish/booze/dope etc that continue the attack and .............its BOOM BOOM OUT GO DA LIGHTS!


when you really take the time to read the statutes, throw examples to an instructor "WHAT IFS???" , it all becomes real clear, cut and dry when you can reveal or use a DEADLY WEAPON in SELF DEFENSE or defense of property and castle doctrine.


YOU MUST BE IN FEAR OF YER LIFE! doesnt matter if the bad guy has a vehicle(deadly weapon), a baseball bat, a crow bar, a M-60, an RPG, a howitzer 155mm, his bare hands, a knife, a BIC PEN, all are construed by law as weapons in the event of an attack.


heres a lokal example just recently if ya EVER got into a road rage incident and "thought" about getting out of the car and throwing some punches thru the guys car window.

in n.snobbsdale 2 guys get into road rage crap. both pull over............one guy gets out starts throwing punches and trying to drag guy out of car. well he got his azz blown away DEAD! and it WAS a LEGAL HOMICIDE! the guy was IN FEAR OF HIS LIFE! end of subject.


so as in A-POC-O-LIPS NOW the movie and here "NEVER GET OUT OF THE BOAT and NEVER GET OUT OF YOUR CAR!"


dont go looking for trouble.

I believe we already have. At least insofar as the laws that have been put in place to protect the citizenry from the authorities; these laws have been routinely ignored and our rights have been routinely trampled by overzealous authorities.

LEO has already been displaying these tendencies for some time. With every god damn Mayberry sized department deploying SWAT teams these days, and itching for ways to "use them or lose them", we have seen a marked uptick in spurious shootings from their end.

I see this law (as purely symbolic as it may be) as a frustrated citizenry's response to this fundemental change in law enforcement tactics and the greater peril in which these changes leave us.

A man's home is supposed to be sacrosanct, inviolable except under the most dire of circumstances. Our authorities have lost sight of that basic principle, one that sets the United States apart from just about everyone else in the world. I see laws like this as simply reminding them of the pecking order in this country - the citizen stands at the top, and all "authorities" ultimately answer to us. They only gain that authority through us, at our pleasure, and they need to remember that at all times. Some don't - laws like this help serve to remind them.

That case is a huge mess and still ongoing. Jose Guerena was shot something like 22 times out of 71 rds. fired. (Imagine 49 stray .223 rounds in your house!) They did hold back the paramedics for over an hour, but I've read Guerena died within four minutes and there was no saving him. He was literally full of holes.

The SWAT goons didn't do a no-knock warrant. They have video (actually, helmet cam) footage of their lights and sirens running while they're knocking on the door and ID'ing themselves for severla seconds before going in. Still, what stinks here is that idiot sheriff sealed the warrant and search findings, allegedly to protect the confidential informant. So no one knows what the PC was for that warrant. Seems to me, it'd have been a lot easier to detain Guerena at work while others executed the search warrant at his house. Problem is that our militarized cops spend years preparing for these ninja shootouts and eventually get tired of waiting for it to happen. This is another one that could have been handled a lot better. Guerena's family turned down a $20 million settlement offer.

yeah rickster this IS A PRETTY GOOFY CASE! how'd ya like to be called to jury duty on this one????


might as well kiss our jobs goodbye, cuz we would be there a LONG DAMN TIME SORTING THAT ONE OUT!


pima county SWAT fer sure had overwhelming el supremo firepower. SHEESH!


but remember this, WE are ONLY getting the tip of the iceberg info on this right now. as time goes on , more and more info will come out.



this one fer sure caught my eye as EXCESSIVE same as in utah.



note to self..........."POO HAPPENS............AVOID POO AT ALL COSTS!"

I think Guerena or his wife were involved in some shenanigans and the warrant was probably pretty sound. But again, the way the whole thing went down was so avoidable and the cops are just getting out of hand and too trigger happy.

yeah i saw the wife and someone else was busted for something else, after the shoot out. dont remember what for???.


but on the other side of the coin, if WE were in that or ANY SWAT TEAMS boots, we would be ARMED TO THE TEETH w/BANDOLEERS of ammo and (6) backup shooters on our person, and hopefully an armored vehicle w/a .50 cal backing us up and a APACHE AH-64 LONGBOW overhead!

but one thing i would make GAWD DAMN SURE OF...................we HAD THE RIGHT PERSON and the RIGHT ADDRESS!


man i am DUE anytime for jury duty on the state and fed side of things.............and i just KNOW it will be a long and drawn out trial. thats my luck.

No they don't. They are referring to oxycontin when they say that.

LEO is already going to the paramilitary stuff as a primary plan in FAR too many situations without any repercussions.

Not here in Kalifornia, as you know...

I called LAPD once over a serious traffic accident caused by a woman with a suspended license, no insurance, and unsafe vehicle (brakes failed, supposedly.) There were 5 if not 6-figures of damage plus a major traffic holdup. Their actual reply to me was that they wouldn't respond unless someone was dead or dying.

That is one of the reason, among many, why I left.

David, I have no idea why LEO would not respond to this. If this happens again, call the on-duty Watch Commander and demand a patrol car. The cops on the street would love to catch bad guys like this and be able to identify them through video. This shocks me.

If you were local to me, my guys would be happy to take these bad guys to jail!

Some of the guys posting have little or no knowledge about this type of incident. Federal cops do not "outrank" state guys, who do not "outrank" county guys, who do not "outrank" city guys. They all have the same "power," but with different geographical areas. The Feds have a different focus and do investigate particular crimes.

As far as entering a residence, cops either need:
1. A warrant
2. Consent
3. Exigent Circumstances

David

nanny nanny BOO BOO...............NONE of YOU GUYS HAVE STEVEN SEAGAL on your force like WE DO!


i'm gonna have to call him(he has a pad here), and find out who is hairstylist is?



until YOU have steven seagal roaming around in yer town............YOU dont know what SAFE IS!


HAI KARATE!