I disagree. We pay our police force to enforce the law, and to protect our Constitutional rights. All of us. They are responsible for every choice they made, especially once he was cornered in the cabin, and they had complete control of the situation. They had the choice to attempt to take him alive.

I offered him some thin mints and a glass of whole milk if he came out

Two completely different circumstances.

Rodney king was not armed and had not killed people/cops.

They "Killed" this guy because he was held up in a cabin and shooting at them with some success.

What I'm concerned about is the use of CS gas. If they used enough he may have become unconscious and therefore unable to surrender.
.... I'm not buying the single shot just before the fire. Way too convenient.

CS gas is flammable. It's been speculated that the CS gas pumped into the Waco building was ignited on purpose by the FBI.
Did the cops use the same tactic at the cabin?

Fair enough.

WHAT IF he would have placed his hands up over his head and walked out?

I have a feeling someone would have "accidentally" shot him. Or there would have been some BS story how he opened fire on them.

Could this guy have given up and come out of this alive even if he wanted to??

I'm not so sure...

Was he actually shooting at them? It's hard to tell from this thread. If yes, then a different set of circumstances. I get the feeling From this thread he was "holed up" and not presently firing at them.

Which is precisely why I think the police have the responsibility to calm the hell down, and make every attempt to bring the guy in alive. If he decides to put the gun in his mouth, so be it. But we pay them to apprehend, not execute.

Good point, but they were reasonably sure. The cabin owner was on TV saying that she had shut the place down, and had shut off the electricity, heat, etc. The owner was surprised to learn from watching TV that her cabin was involved.

And how do you know that he's not diabetic AND lactose intolerant? You brute!!


I am happy that the guy is dead. That is why I am not quick to judge the cops here. I am also glad that he's not being given free medical, free meals, free legal appeals, etc etc like the scum shooters we have seen lately.

I also agree with ZOA, that it will be very very interesting to see if there is a bullet hole pre-mortem through his skull.

He killed one cop at the cabin and injured another so he was definitely shooting at them

You really can't make a proper assessment of what actually from the video.

Totally agree. I'm just concerned about the bigger picture. The more power we give to "authorities", the worse it'll be for us citizens.

I'll say this, I would have been impressed if they would have taken him alive.

Is anyone surprised they didn't use a drone strike to kill him?? :)

Label him a terrorist, and they would have gotten the green light... :)

nobody mentioned Ruby Ridge yet

nobody mentioned Ludlow, Colo. either

I TOTALLY posted this yesterday!

They actually called him a terrorist.

Yes, he shot at them when the standoff started. Almost a day went by, police evacuated the area, news flooded in, people like me tuned into the scanners.....then the final chapter around 4:30 when the cops brought in the burners. By then, they had already rammed the holes in the walls, they had shot up the cabin, saw bloodspatters on the wall, etc etc. They knew they got him, they pretty much were sealing the deal.

I understand your question, and I agree with your and OWP's point. I also agree that this is a nation of laws, and I agree that the cops are given discretion to use force only because they are often there as a first responder, and need to be judicious in that use of force.....

But I just can't bring myself to condemn the cops yet. I can condemn them for shooting innocent bystanders for sure, but for killing a murderer, even if he was bleeding out at the time....I just don't know yet.

Doesn't matter krap what we think...

Give the guy a chance to surrender, then do what you have to do to get him out, without risking your men's lives.

What that is, depends on the situation and the risk. This guy, was a proven extreme threat. Every time he's shot it out with police, an officer has died. You treat his threat very differently from a routine burglar etc.

Hmmm.I think this shoulkd be in green. I'm pretty sure my life is equally as important as a cop. Sorry no that's not correct, I am positive it is more important than any cop. Cops or any LEO are no more important and don't have any rights gretaer than any other.

This dovetails with an earlier thread that asked "When is it OK to shoot a cop?" If you find yourself in a situation where you are forced to shoot one, wouldn't you prefer that the ones who show up to arrest you use a little restraint? This is precisely why we have laws, and why we train our authorities to be held to a higher standard.

Baz, you usually get it right but I beg to differ here. I fail to see where a person that kills a cop should have no rights. You have implied here that if one of us "regular" people gets killed by a lowlife, our murder should be treated differently. Murder is murder, from 8 months to 80 years old and regardless of vocation, sex, color or anything else. They should all be treated the same.

Wow, strange responses from some of you.

He killed a couple of people, he shot at Fish and Game Wardens, he went into the cabin.

He fired at them from the cabin.

They fired CS gas into the building (burners),

Media was on site documenting,

If he'd said "I'm coming out" and tossed his weapon(s), the media would have documented an execution if they'd gunned him down. But he didn't surrender

I don't see that the cops did anything wrong.

All criminal laws are based on one or two principals: (1) deterrence, or laws are there to deter criminal acts, or (2) retribution, or a person has to pay for a criminal act.

But the law is not perfect, and can't be written for every thing that happens. That is why we have juries. Ultimately the people of San Bernardino county will decide how to adjudicate the law here. To be sure, different communities have different law because they see things differently. That is our system, and that is the best we can do. It is up to that community to apply the law to the facts. I am very skeptical that in this case the law can be black and white because it really is an extreme case no matter how you look at it.

I am for capital punishment, and I am at the same time glad that our society is uncomfortable with it. I do not envy those who had to make the decision of what to do at that time. I am grateful that they killed a killer when I put myself into the shoes of the victims' families. I do not think Dorner showed any remorse, nor was he able to be rehabilitated.

If someone goes totally crazy and kills a bunch of people, is he entitled to a jury trial? I really think there is a legitimate case either way. If the cops sole reason to kill Dorner was payback for the lives he took, I would not be above concluding that was just. If he was taken out with a single headshot at close range, I would not think any different.

By the way, remember how Dorner killed the San Bernardino deputy, McKay, and wounded the other deputy. He went into a cabin, then from inside the cabin, shot one deputy. Then he threw a smoke device from the cabin, and shot the other deputy. The police figured out that being outside a cabin, with this guy inside, is a bad tactic.

Now, I hear you guys who are saying every life is worth the same, Dorner's life was worth as much as a sheriff's deputy's life, and your life in particular is worth more than any cop's life.

Let me ask you this. If us PPOT'ers were the police, Dorner had killed two of us, one of our daughters, her husband, shot more of us, and was now barricaded in a cabin from where he'd been shooting and killing - would you have said "this man's life is worth as much as mine. I will go in there and try to bring him out alive, as he tries to kill me. I will leave my children and my wife behind." Would the rest of us had also stood up and said the same thing, said goodbye to our families and our lives, and given Dorner the opportunity to make widows and orphans in our homes?

I don't have much doubt. I would not have. Give him a chance to come out, yes. Fire a gas grenade through the window instead of a fragmentation grenade, okay. Give him another chance to come out. That's all. I would not consider his life the equal of mine, or his life as important as my family.

Would you have?

I think not.

Then, why do you hold other men to a standard that you yourself would not have met?

No rewards will be paid...seems the reward offers read "information leading to the arrest and conviction"...so, they are welching on the reward offers.

Of course, those making the offer knew damn well there would never be a trial.

this is the problem with our country today, no one wants to take responsibility for their actions.

We are a nation of harmless, innocent victims, martyred through totalitarian injustice.

We don't need to be responsible for our actions, the System is supposed to protect us.

You start killing my family, your life is definitely worth a whole lot less than mine.

Doesn't get much better said than this.

Shaun, "The System" can only protect you if it is allowed to work. It was circumvented here.
Yup, even if the victim is a total POS, murder is murder. That is precisely what this was, premeditated and everything.

Wonder how long until the riots start in LA

Those rules(regarding ammo and weapons) do not apply to LEO. Seems like this is true for a troubling number of our laws.
I am. He would be dead as Dillinger if anyone had a shot.
Paul nails it. There will be no repercussions to the parties involved at all.
LEO MUST be held to a higher standard. Simple as that. If you can't do the job professionally, don't take the job.

They had a secure situation, he was contained and no way in hell was he going anyplace. Spotlights and snipers if you are worried about him getting away. That man was murdered. What he "deserved" should not have influenced what the police did. Seems pretty clear that is not the case.

This is going to lead to some big problems in LA. It was bad enough when there was one crazy guy shooting at them. I suspect that more LAPD and LASD officers will be killed because of how they handled this, than Mr Dorner murdered. People already don't trust the cops down there. Does anyone think there is any possibility that this will improve the situation?

It is a complete mystery to everyone here that people could express any support for this guy. There are hundreds of thousands of people in the LA area that have either been abused by the cops due to race or have family or friends that have. A good number of them are armed every bit as well as this guy was, maybe even better.

Things are going to get a whole lot worse down there before they get better

This thread isn't about Dorner. I would happily pull the trigger on his sorry ass. This is about the power we choose give to our authorities. At the end of the day, they chose to take a human life that they could have chosen to save and try in a court of law. Maybe there's a reason they chose that path, who knows, but it's a slippery slope when we let the police become the executioners on the spot. Can you imagine what would have happened if they had him cornered in Carson, or Long Beach, and did the same thing?

I would have been OK with them using one of those forrest fire fighting helicopters with the huge water bucket to drop boiling grease into that house. Once he is killing cops and has shown that there is zero chance for surrender, the only prerogative is to not lose anymore innocent life. He was a monster and a mass murderer, he had no rights in my book. :cool:

ZOA,

Maybe I'm missing something here, but he could have surrendered. He didn't. Were the PD supposed to negotiate with his ass while it got dark and he could have possibly escaped? I'm sorry, but you shoot and kill four people.... nevermind.

I thought my response were in green (?)

Oh man.....now I'm color blind!!!

This thread is about actions and consequences for those actions. When you are in a building, told to come out by police, and you don't, but instead shoot police, there is a reasonable expectation that you will be killed.

Actions have consequences.

Take responsibility for your decisions.

it's that simple.

You heartless bastard. You know he probably likes soul food, and you want to kill him with arteriosclerosis!

That was my point. I am sure to the family of the girl who was killed her life was equally as important as the cops. What makes the cops life more valuable and should be pursued with more vengeance or vigor than hers? I say none.

I don't get that a cop killer is a special type of criminal. So this guy somehow possessed more evil, hatred, anger, instability, insanity, whatever because he targeted a cop as opposed to Adam Lambert who shot the kids in Connecticut? Really? This Dorner for the most part picked a fight with people who had the ability to try and defend themselves with one exception.

in my opinion anyone that crosses the line and kills another should be treated equally. I would give some exception to a crime of passion, an unplanned killing and then it would be based on the circumstances and jealousy ain't one of them.

People don't seem to understand that when cops shoot, they shoot to kill. I hear stories of "Oh, they shot him 42 times" When cops shoot, they don't shoot to disable like in the movies. Like I said earlier, I've had a few pull overs by cops, but never a bad one.

They should have brought in a psychologist to talk with and comfort Dorner while he was holed up in the cabin, clearly all this wasn't his fault, something must have happened to him as a kid, maybe his parents spanked him or something.

This thread is about principle v pragmatism and where to draw the line between 'em.

Ok, so Dorner is a POS because of the path he chose to settle a score with LADP.
Real or imaged , I don't know.

The problem with cops is we give them authority.
The opportunity and willingest to violate that authority is a problem.

I didnt read all pages, but I think when he shot at the police/public, maybe killing one of them, he didn't get the "Lets negotiate this" off to a good start.

The situation reminds me of the Ron White line: "Texas has the death penalty and we use it! That's right. You kill somebody in Texas, we will kill you right back! That's our policy!"
Looks like California heard how Mr White was picking on them in the skit, and decided that Texas had a point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgQRgT15f9U