So, is everybody cool if they burned the cabin down without even trying to negotiate?
 

Is that how we want our authorities to deal with suspects who haven't had their day in court yet?

Regardless of prior alleged criminal acts for which one would deserve a "day in court", if a suspect took a hostage and exchanged gunfire with the authorities at the scene, I am fine with a no holds barred approach to freeing the hostage and forcing the suspect into the open. No one is forcing said suspect to remain in a burning building. I am certain there was a warrant for his arrest. If he does not submit to arrest, then force him out. There was nothing to "negotiate" here. He did not have a hostage at the time.

He had ample opportunities to have his day in court. People who desire their day in court don't arm themselves to the teeth and hole up in a cabin. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

The "suspect" determined the outcome by his actions...

Killing one of the cops and wounding another will have that effect.

I'm not OK with him burning with the cabin but what else could the cops do?

I'd be pretty pissed if I was the cabin owner.

Coulda been worse. They could have shot up two innocent women in a pick up truck without negotiating. Oh wait. . .

The LEO world gives special consideration to cop killers.
Yup, I be cool. :cool:

mixed feelings. my brother does this type of work. runs into buildings with armed thugs.

i'm not convinced the fire was on purpose. my brother would drive an armored vehicle into the building before torching the joint.

a drastic entry like that saves policeman's lives..i am all for it.

i dont watch the new very much. the information tends to be all over the place. my brother will get the real story later..and tell me. hopefully.

There some talk on the local radio about the cops violating his 5th amendment rights. I didn't get to hear the entire debate.

Due process is not optional and those cops who were hell-bent on killing that man are no better than he was.

not all bad guys go down easy.

Once he killed a cop - all bets are off wrt doing things the legal way.

Cop killers are a special type of criminal and don't deserve constitutional rights.

This is how it has always been done in our society.

Tradition is tradition after all.

Law enforcement has it's reputation to consider.

Dorner made them look real bad there for a while.

I think they did the right thing.

They certainly were justified in shooting back at him, since he initiated gunplay. But burning the cabin down? What was the urgency here? He had no hostage, the cabin was totally surrounded and in the middle of nowhere. He couldn't have had much food to last him very long. They could cut off power, gas and water to make him less comfortable. I hope the cabin owner and his insurance company sue the cops. I doubt any cop will face any punishment over any of this, even the ones who shot up the innocents. Cops are above the law, that's for sure.

As said before, he had his opportunity for a day in court, but waved that right when he shot at the police officers. I'm not happy he died in a horrible way in a house fire, but it does save the taxpayers millions of dollars to keep him in a supermax high security prison for the remaining years of his life.

$85,000 a year for supermax, times 40 years is $3.4M any way you look at it, plus court costs and lawyer fees.

I wonder what Sniper would have to say about all this? Well, no , I really don't.

news reports say fire was from tear gas canisters thrown in the house to get him to come out.

Suppose the local cops are on the look-out for a suspected cop killer and they mistake you for him. You didn't do it, but they think it was you.
So they fire a couple thousand rounds at you with no questions asked.
You still cool with it?

Uh huh. :rolleyes:

News reports are going to be based solely on the information given to them by the cops.

According to the live news video, the tear gas canisters were shot into the cabin AFTER the cops darn near ran out of ammo turning that cabin into swiss cheese.

they had decided to murder that man a week ago. They were just waiting for the chance.
yes I'm sure he deserved it but it's not up to me and it's not up to the cops to decide that. It's up to a jury of his peers in a court of law.

If we let the cops "off" the low-lifes, pretty soon they'll be "offing" the rest of us too.
I respect law enforcement but absolutely will not look the other way when they get out of control.

This!! Time was on the police's side. They had no intention of bringing him in. And planning and lighting the cabin on fire is premeditated, no? The fire was deliberately set.

I'm sure others have read that partial transcipt from the San Bernardino Sherriff system feed. Pretty damning. "Alright, we're going to go ahead with the plan with the burners"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X-WoiJhVY8

Yup. None of them are going to do any real digging. Would be interesting to see what the FBI has to say about this.

You'd think the FBI will back them up, because isn't this exactly what the FBI did in Waco??

They'd be hard pressed to be critical when they essentially did the same thing, no?

It's over and they probably saved the taxpayers some money.

what would you do if you were the DAM WATCHMAN and he went to the bottom of the dam on scuba with his gopro and exploded a device, and rode the torrent of water all the way down to make his escape????



i guess you'd be going WTF? and looking for another DAM JOB!

I am ok with the burning of the house intentional or otherwise. A delay as they wait for him to give up could cost more lives. In this case I am fine with the use of excessive force.

Who the hell hijacked Sammy's id? I distinctly remember your position when an "out of control" cop shot and killed an 18 year old (a prominent attorney's kid) through his closed front door a few years back. A simple "summons to appear" would have sufficed in that instance (but not here), and several of us caught hell for questioning the LEO's back then. What a "double standard" you seem to have acquired :rolleyes:. My position is this: If you "declare war" whether as an ex-cop or a US citizen "terrorist" overseas, then "it is what it is" :cool:

Yeah, the youtube stuff says it all.
Hey does the cabin owner get full replace value for the lost of property etc.
plus the million dollar reward.

Maybe they thought they were in Texas and there was a bunch of kids in there being abused.

The FBI had plenty of ownership in Waco, not so much in this one. The FBI went in after the ATF bungled the whole thing and decided to wait them out. Janet Reno made the call to end the standoff, not the FBI. In this one the FBI, AFAIK, had nothing to do with it and is less likely to whitewash it.

I think I gotta come down with Sammy on this one. We've let the "authorities" run wild in this country. While there was indeed a shootout, and I have no problem with him taking return fire, I gotta draw the line at simply burning the cornered man alive. There is, after all, a rule of law, and if I'm gonna go to the mat over my 2A rights to bear arms, I gotta stick with the 5A rights as well. Sure, he's a bad dude, and I would have voted for the death penalty, but we gotta control these authorities, or we might as well let 'em kill every perp they come across.

All this talk about due process might lead one to believe even the cops don't trust the courts. So the cops are corrupt because the courts are corrupt?

We need more laws!

I was listening to the system feed from the SBD police dept online. There is zero doubt that they started the fire to flush him out. They were talking about the possibility of him running out after the fire started. It was empty, and already had no power or heat since the owner had shut everything off before leaving for the winter. They had also rammed holes through 3 of the walls, and were looking via remote vehicle at a garbage bag behind the front door and blood spatters on one of the walls.

I think Dornan was hit and was hiding inside the cabin when they shot incendiaries into the cabin, which went up like a roman candle.

In what sense did the LAPD burn the guy alive? It was his decision to stay in the house and burn to death, or eat a bullet, or whatever. He had ample time to notice the fire and evacuate the house, either surrendering, fighting or fleeing. Its not like the LAPD dropped a bomb on the place. A few tear canisters lit flammable items, which I'm guessing took some time to develop into a full on fire.

^ Nope. The whole cabin was burned to the ground in less than an hour.

Also, I seriously doubt that he was going to leave that cabin alive. Earlier, they had tried to blast him out with a loudspeaker.

If you put incendiaries into a bldg. and it catches fire, you started the fire. Try to argue otherwise (as a non-LEO anyway) in any court in the US. Yes, Dorner made a series of very bad decisions, and every chance he got to the right thing, he did the opposite. The cops weren't far behind in their poor decision making either. But they'll skate for it. Where/when else are th cops allowed to burn down a bldg. with a suspect in it, when there's no hostage or any chance of innocents getting in the crossfire?

A fire can erupt into a full blown conflagration in less than 15 seconds.

Totally agree... if we give the PD the green light to be judge and jury we are giving up due process and our rights as Americans.

You folks remember our rights as Americans?

Yup. Dorner running into an empty cabin was a very lucky break for the PD. Dorner must have known this, as he tried to escape but was driven back into it after shooting two more deputies.