Is there any justification for the F-35 fighter jet?

[BReif61]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

Strictly from a performance perspective, are the current aircraft failing right now?

Are you not reading Matt's posts?

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

That's the point. Throwing money at an imaginary enemy isn't the answer, that's what politicians do to get re-elected.

Is the F35 just a fund raising program, or does our Intelligence (all agencies) have an enemy that we need the F35 for. We put billions into Intelligence for a reason.

Take some time, who is this enemy and in what kind of war do we need the F35? Surely if we are spending a few billion $ on this plane, it should be an easy question to answer with definitive facts, not unicorns over rainbows, though they can be formidable.

I am not a military planner nor an intelligence specialist; I cannot say where the next war will be. But the one thing I do know, as anyone with the slightest knowledge of history could tell you, there will be another war.

Let me ask you this: if there is no need for the F-35, then there surely is no need for the current fleet. Perhaps we should scrap all of those aircraft? That should save billions a year. We can just fly Predators around everywhere.

If you bought a racecar in the mid-70s, would it make better financial sense to be still racing it today (in a modern series, none of this historic racing)? Or would you replace it with a up to date car?

Should we stop making human-driven vehicles, since computer driven cars "are the future?"

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

Take some time, who is this enemy and in what kind of war do we need the F35? Surely if we are spending a few billion $ on this plane, it should be an easy question to answer with definitive facts, not unicorns over rainbows, though they can be formidable.

For starters... NORTH KOREA!

Look at desert storm... in a day (or two) we ruled the air... he who rules the air rules the ground... and I'm not even a military guy.

I like kittens too...

[J P Stein]

Maybe my post was too hard to think on. Here's a simpler one.

What is the main weakness of an M1A1 tank?.....a tough customer in any ones back yard.....there is a hint for ya.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

Let's put this another way. If each of these aircraft were brand new today, what enemy aircraft would beat them now.

What enemy aircraft would 5 years from now? In what scenario?

It is not about the enemy aircraft, it is about the enemies weapons. It is also about the suppression of enemy air defenses.

We are investing heavily in UAS technology, large aircraft, smalls, expendables, etc. We are also investing in manned/unmanned teaming, etc.

I am not a proponent of the F-35.

BTW, any detailed discussion of the F-35 requirements, peer competitors, the "why" would quickly go outside our ability to discuss.

[ODDJOB UNO]

ok naysayers...................LETS SEND YOUR KIDS TO WAR WITH A FREEKING WINCHESTER 16" barrel .30/.30!



right this very instant DOD is trying to figure out OUR (u.s.a) NEXT GEN BATTLE RIFLE issued to ALL GRUNTS!


its coming down to FNH SCAR or HK's lineup.


me? if we go to war anywhere for whatever damn reason i the taxpayer WANT THE VERY DAMN BEST PLATFORM THAT MONEY CAN BUY for my kids or anyones kids.


blow the pricks away ASAP...............and get the war OVER therefore SAVING LIVES!


if we(the u.s.a) didnt learn for pearl harbor or 9/11..................well then WE ARE MORONS!



history does repeat itself and thats REALITY!



a strong DEFENSE is a STRONG OFFENSE!




and every bit of techno stuff designed and implemented on a DOD project does sooner or later trickle down.



ITS ALL GOOD and i sleep damn good KNOWING there's a BOOMER OUT THERE UNDER THE SEVEN SEAS JUST WAITING FOR SOME PRICK LIKE KOREA OR IRAN to do something STOOPID and THEY WILL VAPORIZE THEM IN AN INSTANT!


and thats a nice WARM FUZZY AND DETERRENT!



no different than some moron bad guy criminal here trying to jack someone here in az. its NOT A GOOD IDEA CUZ EVERYBODY HAS A POCKET DETERRENT!

[scottmandue]

Not to hijack but just to beat the drone drum a little...

What can a armed drone do better that a missile (guided or cruise)?

I believe drones are great for surveillance/data acquisition... as a weapon? Not so much.

[VincentVega]

Interesting thread.

I can't tell you, I'm sure dramatically more than it should. Both the F35 and F22 programs are a story of how not to do government procurement. But that doesn't change the need. Just a quick list of active attack aircraft and their EIS dates:

A-10 - 1977
B-1 - 1986
B-2 - 1997
B-52 - 1955
F-15 - 1976
F-15E Strike Eagle - 1988
F-16 - 1978
F-18 - 1983
F-18 Super Hornet - 1999
AV-8B Harrier - 1985

Airplanes don't last forever......

Good info. What does it matter if the design is old if it still does the job? I dont know anything about airplanes, what am I missing? I agree we should have the best trained, best equipped military but that doesnt mean we spend unlimited funds getting there.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

Not to hijack but just to beat the drone drum a little...

What can a armed drone do better that a missile (guided or cruise)?

I believe drones are great for surveillance/data acquisition... as a weapon? Not so much.

You would be wrong, Scott.

[ODDJOB UNO]

listen guys WAR aint some stoopid azz video game. its DEAD AZZ SER-I-AZZ! and it could quite possibly be YOU or yer kids fighting the war.


if we havent learned that mankind is a bunch of warmongering MORONS ..............than we havent learned ANYTHING!


if attacked by anyone i want to be able to BURN BOMB SHOOT VAPORIZE BLOW THE HELL OUT OF THE ENEMY SO FAST IT MAKES THEIR EYES SPIN!


my dad spent 5 freeking years IN COMBAT in the s.pacific with (2) r&r's to oz and new zealand.


i asked him one time "what was the happiest day in your life?" and he stated "well son if ya think it was the day you were born yer WRONG! the happiest day of my life was when we nuked the living hell out of the japs!" he was slated for operation coronet operation olympic the invasion of japanese homeland! ONE MILL-YON ESTIMATED DEATHS OF OUR OWN!



so YOU tell me defense spending is a waste of money! YOU CANT SPEND ENOUGH ON SAFETY!



yeah i am a HAWK thru and thru! geneva convention PFFFT! GO TO HELL! i want to be able to KILL EVERYTHING IN SIGHT. there is NO KINDER GENTLER WARFARE IN MY BOOK! ya start crap.................there wont be two twigs leaning against one another and then i would salt the freeking earth after i killed EVERYBODY! AND ANYBODY THAT STARTED THE DAMN WAR IN THE 1st PLACE!



afghan and iraq combined are not even a spit in the bucket compared to WWII and the daily DEATH TOLL that we endured.



get real. the ONLY WAY TO FIGHT A WAR EVER is WITH OVERWHELMING SUPREME FIREPOWER! flat ass wipe them off the planet NOW! melt them burn them vaporize them stab them shoot them KILL THEM NOW AND THEN SHOOT THEM AGAIN!


THATS WAR !



and that AINT FUN BY ANY STRETCH and it AINT A FREEKING VIDEO GAME!


theres a reason why they call it the "HORRORS OF WAR!" and the faster ya kill all the pricks the quicker its OVER!



and i love kittens also!

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by BReif61

Are you not reading Matt's posts?

Matt hasn't posted anything other than our planes are old. That's not a reason to build the F35.

Originally Posted by BReif61

I am not a military planner nor an intelligence specialist; I cannot say where the next war will be. But the one thing I do know, as anyone with the slightest knowledge of history could tell you, there will be another war.

Let me ask you this: if there is no need for the F-35, then there surely is no need for the current fleet. Perhaps we should scrap all of those aircraft? That should save billions a year. We can just fly Predators around everywhere.

If you bought a racecar in the mid-70s, would it make better financial sense to be still racing it today (in a modern series, none of this historic racing)? Or would you replace it with a up to date car?

Should we stop making human-driven vehicles, since computer driven cars "are the future?"

There is no logic in your post here, only emotion. your analogy is poor on race cars, again, more emotion.

If we want to spend a few billion dollars of our tax money, it should be easy to explain how and why it should be used.

Take emotion out of the debate and answer why we need to waste this money, please be specific. No unicorns thank you.

Or maybe you are OK with wasting money we don't have. You could just say that too and we'd be done.

[BReif61]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

Matt hasn't posted anything other than our planes are old. That's not a reason to build the F35.




There is no logic in your post here, only emotion. your analogy is poor on race cars, again, more emotion.

If we want to spend a few billion dollars of our tax money, it should be easy to explain how and why it should be used.

Take emotion out of the debate and answer why we need to waste this money, please be specific. No unicorns thank you.

Or maybe you are OK with wasting money we don't have. You could just say that too and we'd be done.

I fail to see how the analogies are "emotional," but we'll continue.
No emotion whatsoever? Ok.

The current fleet is old. Fact.
Nothing lasts forever. Fact.
Something needs to replace current fleet. Fact.

Axing the JSF and starting from scratch will cost much more than finishing the JSF.

What would you propose we do in the interim, before UAVs are mature enough to field?

[onewhippedpuppy]

Our airplanes being old isn't justification for the F35, only for a replacement. A little background, airplanes are designed for a certain service life, usually determined in hours or cycles. You have to have this limit as part of the design process, otherwise you'd end up with flying tanks. The primary point is that airplanes have a finite life simply from a flying perspective, putting aside any conversation on capability. Many of our current airplanes have exceeded their service life, some several times over. Most A-10s have had entirely new wings installed as part of the effort to keep an aging airframe flying. The older an airplane gets the more repairs, inspections, and replacements are required, making them incredibly expensive to keep flying and less reliable from a combat perspective.

[ODDJOB UNO]

wow einsteins lets LOOK AT IT THIS WAY!


any WAR will COST 10x or 100X or a 1000X MORE than having state of the art technology!


and if we were to flat out LOOSE A WAR because of cutting defense spending........................well then just what the hell WILL YOU and ME have THEN?????



think about dat when some superior military power attacks us, vaporiziz everything and YOU/ME are eating kittens and puppies if we even survived the initial strike.


if osama bin bunfeeker had his way on the world military black market he would HAVE NUKED OUR SORRY DUMB AZZ'z!



and then we have the iranian morons and korean morons that wanna join the nuklar party! oh boy!


if iran or korea start any crap whatsoever I WANT THE SATELLITE PHOTO OF BOTH THOSE COUNTRIES DARK AND SMOKING BY 5PM THAT DAY!
I WANT THEM VAPORIZED!


i want 1000's of F-35's wasting everyone and anything in their way to achieve victory!


because i want my puppies and kittens and wifey and sons SAFE!


i wanna KILL! i want blood guts gore in my TEETH! I WANNA KILL EVERYLAST MUTHA FEEKING BASTID THAT STARTED THE WAR DEAD NOW!



and YOU guys think i am one sick puppy dont ya????



well then YOU sit down and listen to the HORRORS OF WAR from WWII vets 1st hand and see what ITS ALL ABOUT!


korea/vietnam/iraq/afghan COMBINED is a spit in the bucket in comparison to the dead we had in WWII!



and WWIII.............................well thats a whole new BALLGAME KIDDIES!



dont believe me???????????????? google project mercury nevada and take a good damn look at the nuke craters that will be across the planet! earth will be one giant azz GOPHER FARM of craters!

[BGCarrera32]

The F35 is stealth and was designed to be from the beginning. Most of the others are not. Is has no canards that mess with the stealth signature, yet offers superior flight characteristics to many aircraft.

The F35 goes liftoff in 400' on short runways, not so with the others.

The F35 lands vertically, arguably a safer carrier landing, in STOVL configuration.

The F35 is a true networked aircraft that is designed to detect and defeat enemy defenses while substantially improving survivability.

The F35 can do what all the other fighter jets do, but they can't do what the F35 does.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by BReif61

I fail to see how the analogies are "emotional," but we'll continue.
No emotion whatsoever? Ok.

The current fleet is old. Fact.
Nothing lasts forever. Fact.
Something needs to replace current fleet. Fact.

Axing the JSF and starting from scratch will cost much more than finishing the JSF.

What would you propose we do in the interim, before UAVs are mature enough to field?

Keep running the fleet. We could certainly build brand new versions of the fleet. Add weapons systems as needed, not a whole new plane.

Let me know when you figure out what new jet has to compete with in the air, and when.

Stop flushing our tax dollars down the drain. We can't afford this plane. We don't need this plane.

[Cannonball996]

the F35 cost the tax payers way more then it was ever expected to. the F35 was compromised by the chinese a decade ago when they stile the plans, they are now producing the same aircraft at a fraction of the cost. the F35 has its own draw back as well, when matched up against our ally's the F35 preformed very well at long range, but not very well at close range where it had no advantage against multiple aircraft. the pentagons own conclusion was that the F35 is better then the F16, but 2 F16s were better then 1 F35 at 1/8 the cost.

[Tervuren]

On the drone issue, having your drone force "taken over" can become a possibility - not a very good scenario. Its harder to take over the human brain without warning.

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

slight hijack

The last thing in the world we need are more kids going to college who would be better served by going to trade school or digging ditches or working at Starbucks. College is not for everyone and student loan debt in another shoe to drop in the near future. College tuitions are outrageous and climbing way faster than inflation precisely because no one pays with their own money. Taxpayers should not be furthering this trend.

+1, very happy with life, no college debt, no six figure salery either, but hey, its enough to live on and have some extra. A lot of US manufacturing is struggling to find decent workers, there are lots of job opportunities for a good worker judging from the amount of guys at the kart track that have asked upon finding out what I do, if I'm looking for a job.

[BReif61]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

Keep running the fleet. We could certainly build brand new versions of the fleet. Add weapons systems as needed, not a whole new plane.

Where are you finding these brand new F-15s, A-10s, and AV-8's?

[Aragorn]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

Keep running the fleet. We could certainly build brand new versions of the fleet. Add weapons systems as needed, not a whole new plane.

Let me know when you figure out what new jet has to compete with in the air, and when.

Stop flushing our tax dollars down the drain. We can't afford this plane. We don't need this plane.

I don't mean to dog pile on you but some of the planes have been out of production for many years and to put them back in production with new tooling is mucho dinero.