Any Pelican plumbing and hot water gurus ?

74-911 · 03-20-2013, 04:55 PM

After settling into this 13 year old house we recently moved into, I am working on increasing the energy efficiency. There are 2 problems with the hot water system (apparently designed by the village idiot).

House is approx. 3200 ft2, 3 1/2 baths, kitchen and laundry room. The 3 full baths are all on one end of the house, the kitchen, 1/2 bath and laundry room on the other end. There are 2 - 50 gal water heaters.

The problem: BOTH water heaters are on the very far end of the house in the attic above the bed rooms. Common cold water input and both hot outputs go into the same line. Almost instant hot water in the full baths. Don't hold your breath waiting for hot water in the kitchen, 1/2 bath or laundry room. It is beyond my comprehension why it was done this way. There is plenty of room to have installed the 2nd heater in the other end of the house to feed the kitchen, laundry room and the water lines and gas feed are already there???.

For the no hot water issue in the kitchen, etc., I have ordered a Laing recirculating pump with timer which should pretty much solve the hot water issue in the far end of the house at a minimum cost energy wise.

The other issue is there is no way my wife and I would ever need 100 gallons of hot water. In reality a single 40 gallon heater would probably do. My idea is to turn off the cold water inlet valve to one of the heaters then turn the setting to pilot. If the family hordes arrive and we need massive amounts of hot water, all I would have to do is open the inlet valve and turn the heater back on.

What say ye? Anyone have any experience with Laing recirculating pumps? Anyone see any issues with shutting down one of the hot water heaters in the manner described ?

TIA

plumb4u2 · plumb4u2's Garage

I am assuming that you have a large soaking or jaccuzzi tub in the master bath correct?

This would be the only explanation for the two heaters

90% of average size homes like yours WITHOUT a large tub would only have one 50 gallon tank

fintstone · fintstone's Garage

I have two houses that are similarly sized. Each has a 75 gal tank and a recirc pump on a timer. Neither has ever run out of hot water...including when filling a jacuzzi tub.

74-911 · 03-25-2013, 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fintstone

I have two houses that are similarly sized. Each has a 75 gal tank and a recirc pump on a timer. Neither has ever run out of hot water...including when filling a jacuzzi tub.

I hope the recirculating pump on a timer will solve the issue. Previous house laid out almost identical to this one but had a 40 gal. water heater at each end of the house. We had almost instant hot water at all faucets and no shortage of hot water.

unclebilly · unclebilly's Garage

I have some ideas...

Are these gas or electric?

If electric, this is easy, install an electric tankless water heater at the kitchen end and eventually replace your water tanks with a tankless at the other end of the house.

If you do want to keep the tanks, plumb one into to other. Set the first to room temp so it heats the water up initially but will have no thermal storage losses. This will make the second tank more efficient as it will have less work to do and you only have thermal losses on one tank.

targa911S · 03-25-2013, 04:38 AM

wait..you have 100 gallons of hot water over your head in the bedroom? Why does that seem like a bad idea to me?

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

Jack, are you just Southwest of Katy?

I second the idea of instant heaters in the kitchen and powder room. Those typically do not use much hot water. I've never really liked the recirculation idea.

74-911 · 03-25-2013, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by targa911S

wait..you have 100 gallons of hot water over your head in the bedroom? Why does that seem like a bad idea to me?

Actually it is over the master bath but point well taken. For whatever reason (space mainly ) In this part of the world putting water heaters in the attic is very common as basements are mostly non-existent.

I thought about the tankless / instant water heaters and if the recirculation system doesn't work I will look at that next. For the time being I'm trying to solve this at minimal cost.

James: Yes, just SW of Katy... near beautiful downtown Fulshear.

targa911S · 03-25-2013, 05:22 PM

I "get" that. My FL house had neither like yours but the tank was in the garage, not over my head. That would just bother me.

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by targa911S

I "get" that. My FL house had neither like yours but the tank was in the garage, not over my head. That would just bother me.

It should. It is a common problem around here. A hot water heater breaks and causes thousands of dollars in water damage. I use "leak frogs" in the drain pains to check for water leaks.

The one "advantage" of the hot water heater in the attic, in the summer, the water is basically preheated.

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by 74-911

Actually it is over the master bath but point well taken. For whatever reason (space mainly ) In this part of the world putting water heaters in the attic is very common as basements are mostly non-existent.

I thought about the tankless / instant water heaters and if the recirculation system doesn't work I will look at that next. For the time being I'm trying to solve this at minimal cost.

James: Yes, just SW of Katy... near beautiful downtown Fulshear.

We'll have to meet up sometime for a beer.

fintstone · fintstone's Garage

Yep, had to replace mine on Sunday due to a leak. Good thing I was home as I oftrn travel for weeks at a time...there was no pan. It was over 35 years old...so I really was not surprised.

look 171 · 03-25-2013, 10:08 PM

tell us about this recirc. pump of yours.

fintstone · fintstone's Garage

There are a couple of types. In a new build or where you desire/are able to run a return line from the far end of the house to the input or cold water side of the hot water heater (can be tubing...doesn't have to be as large as supply line). The pump has a timer set for periods when you are home. It will pump enough of the cooled water from the far end of the line back to the hot watt heater...similar to you manually running the faucet to get it warm except you don't waste water or the energy used to preheat the water down the drain. If it is on the most distant place in the system...all faucets in the line that are closer to the heater also benefit. Usually the pump is mounted at the hot water heater.

The second type is mounted at the most distant point...usually under the sink. You don't run a line to it from the hot water heater, but attach it between the hot and cold lines under the sink. It pumps a small amount of the cooled hotwater into the cold water line to keep the hot side instantly hot. It also runs on a timer to save energy. It just need to come on a little while before you use it. It also benefits other faucets farther back in line depending on how far off the main supply they are located. If the house is big enough...,you might need another on another wing.

Both only pump very small amounts so they are pretty efficient. Both do need an electrical outlet to power the small pump.

74-911 · 03-26-2013, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by look 171

tell us about this recirc. pump of yours.

To expand on Fint's explanation, there are 2 types of recirc. pump systems if you don't have a dedicated rreturn line:
One type is installed on the water heater itself with a valve installed on the fartherest faucet. The other has the pump and integral valve installed at the fartherest faucet and nothing on the h20 heater. Both systems have build in timers for energy savings.

As James, Fint. Targa, etc mentioned, H20 heaters in the attic is not that great an idea to begin with and adding a pump up there made no sense at all to me so I ordered the Laing which is installed at the faucet. UPS delivered today so will install tomorrow and post results after a couple of days of use.

James: a beer (or three) is definitely called for. When I get a bit more settled and organized will PM .

Brian 162 · 03-26-2013, 05:32 PM

Be sure to have a back-check valve or swing check valve on the re-circ. line so the return water flows in the proper direction.
If the pump ever fails you won't have mixing problems if one of these valves are used.

look 171 · 03-26-2013, 07:13 PM

I think the ones mounted under sink comes with check valves. If you can, have a dedicated return line. Can it be done up in the attic with little damage or patching? I have never like those under sink little pumps but they will help.

74-911 · 04-01-2013, 09:16 AM

Installed the Laing Ecocirc recirculating pump last week. Very easy to install (assuming you have an electrical outlet nearby). Set the timer to start recirculating at 8 AM and stop at 8 PM. Works as advertised, i.e. almost instant hot water and can't hear the pump running when it comes on.

Will be interesting to see how it holds up over the long run but for now this was definitely the most economical solution to the hot water issue. No idea if it will significantly up the gas bill for hot water heater .

john70t · 10:35 AM

Michigan water heater are always in the basement.

I spent sub-$100 to foam insulate all exposed pipe. All joints sealed with metal tape.
(Haven't put a blanket around the heater yet.)

Hot water is much faster. Seconds not minutes.

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by 74-911

Installed the Laing Ecocirc recirculating pump last week. Very easy to install (assuming you have an electrical outlet nearby). Set the timer to start recirculating at 8 AM and stop at 8 PM. Works as advertised, i.e. almost instant hot water and can't hear the pump running when it comes on.

Will be interesting to see how it holds up over the long run but for now this was definitely the most economical solution to the hot water issue. No idea if it will significantly up the gas bill for hot water heater .

Let us know. I would think with copper pipe, it would increase the bill. With PVC, I'm not sure. But water does eventually get cold in PVC pipe, but no where near as quick as copper.