Neighbor dies, trying to help widow, how deep does this rabbit hole go?

HardDrive · 06-04-2013, 12:17 AM

My neighbor died last week. I have been trying to help his widow sort things out. I posted the other day about offering her a reverse mortgage. Everyone said it was a bad idea all around, so I dropped it.

But I'm still trying to help her sort things out. She knows nothing about the finances. Her husband was a bit of nut. He was an epic cheap ass, and it shows. Their house is literally falling apart.

I now find out that the title of their home is not in their name! Its listed as "(insert name here) fiduciary foundation". I can find no record of this entity in WA state.

I had also posted here about potential title problems with an old Mercedes of theirs that I am trying to help her sell. I found an old document that showed that the MB was leased to the couple from the same foundation that owned the house.

The obvious answer here it, 'tell her to get a lawyer'. I think we will end up doing that, but she is flat broke. She's not faking it. As far as I can tell she's living off SS benefits. If I can unravel any bit of this for her so that it doesn't cost her $, I would like too.

If her husband concocted some sort of legal entity to avoid paying taxes, how can I find this entity? This couple have lived in this place for 40 years, but tax records show that it was sold to the fiduciary foundation back in 2003.

Making the assumption that both I and the window can not find any record of the foundation, how do we proceed?

Heel n Toe · 06-04-2013, 12:26 AM

My guess would be that the fiduciary foundation's name on the title/deed means that they were already doing the reverse mortgage thing, but that's speculation.

Somewhere in your area, I am sure there is an attorney who would be willing to at least take a quick look at this pro bono and give you a few ideas on the best way to proceed. Just make a few calls to firms who do closings, etc. and ask if they could recommend someone.

Porsche-O-Phile · Porsche-O-Phile's Garage

It's nice to want to help out but never forget the adage, "no good deed goes unpunished". Be careful.

VaSteve · 06-04-2013, 03:41 AM

There are so many under employed lawyers around....find a young hungry one that would do it pro bono for the experience.

jhynesrockmtn · 06-04-2013, 05:07 AM

They may have put their assets in a trust. Do they have any children? They might know something. A lawyer is going to need to sort this out. If she is truly flat broke there should be non profit legal aid resources available.

GH85Carrera · GH85Carrera's Garage

It is sad to see that. The couple that lived right behind me were the same way. The husband dropped dead and the wife had no clue as to what to do. She had never written a check, she had never driven a car, she did not even have a driver's license. She was a stay home house wife.

Fortunately her sister was still alive and she moved in for 6 months to teach her how to become independent. I just picked my mower up and put it over the fence and mowed her yard for a month before she asked me about it. I was tired of looking at the tall grass. I recommended a friend of mine that mows yards for extra money.

A year later she came driving up to my house and she had actually just come home from church. She finally realized she could go to church anytime she wanted to. She was happy to be free of him. They had been married for 45 years.

john70t · 06-04-2013, 06:43 AM

I'd guess the city/county records dept. should have the address of the title co. that peformed the transfer, and that co. should have the contact info for the foundation.

I second the idea that it probably was a self-created trust.
Assuming that, only a manager or trustee can legally access those records.
As wife, she might automatically become the default trustee for the foundation, but there could be others listed in the documentation.
You don't know anything at this point.

Her husband's banking records should show income/payments with the foundation, which would be a seperate account.
Her husband's accountant and lawyer will know everything.
They won't talk tp you.

At some point in this pursuit of records, you could run into very serious hot water..
There are privacy issues at stake involving the elderly and you are not family!
You are just a neighbor wanting to buy her home at a very steep discount.
Who knows, she may get declared legally unfit next week by her daughter, shipped off to the nearest care facility, house quickly sold, and you get arrested on the charges of being a con artist.....

You might be trying to be this old woman's moral advocate (and make a fast buck), but she will eventually need expensive medical care such as a visiting nurse or a facility. Your role is one or the other.
Way too complex.
Bring her cookies, but tread carefully.

HardDrive · 06-04-2013, 06:52 AM

NO. I am NOT trying to buy her house at a discount. I'm trying to do what I can to help her!

Sheesh!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by john70t

At some point in this pursuit of records, you could run into very serious hot water..
There are privacy issues at stake involving the elderly and you are not family!
You are just a neighbor wanting to buy her home at a very steep discount.
Who knows, she may get declared legally unfit next week by her daughter, shipped off to the nearest care facility, house quickly sold, and you get arrested on the charges of being a con artist.....

You might be trying to be this old woman's moral advocate (and make a fast buck), but she will eventually need expensive medical care such as a visiting nurse or a facility. Your role is one or the other.
Way too complex.
Bring her cookies, but tread carefully.

HardDrive · 06-04-2013, 06:56 AM

WTF?!?!!??! Where exactly did you get the idea that I'm trying to make a fast buck? The thread about reverse mortgages?

I posted that because I'm trying to explore ways to help this woman. And the numbers I quoted were NOT some random low ball figure, I used an online calculator that specifically is set up to figure out reverse mortgage numbers based on the value of the home and persons age.

I guess I'm sleep deprived, but it REALLY burns my ass that your suggesting I'm trying to take advantage of this woman. I don't need her ******* money thank you, I'm doing just fine.

genrex · 06-04-2013, 06:56 AM

You are listing her car for sale, here and on craigslist?

Why are you involved in this? Where are her children?

1986 Mercedes 560SL for sale. $13.5k, OBO

__

john70t · 07:06 AM

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound harsh but it came out that way.
I was only speaking from an outside perspective of her family and/or other guardians.
Don't kill the court jester please, even if he is a jerk.

Your idea sounds morally good, but a situation like this can go south really fast.
CoverYourA__ and get some written authorization to act on her behalf for anything.
It's that type of world these days

scottmandue · 06-04-2013, 07:08 AM

+1 on getting her legal help... maybe look around to see if there is a local organization that give that kind of help to elderly/destitute people?

masraum · 06-04-2013, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HardDrive

NO. I am NOT trying to buy her house at a discount. I'm trying to do what I can to help her!

Sheesh!!!

He's not saying that is what you are actually trying to do, he's saying that other people could easily accuse you of that. Other people could easily think "who would be nice to a random old lady without expecting to get something out of it?" The problem is that there are too many bad people in the world which makes many folks wary when someone comes along with no ulterior motive.

dtw · 06-04-2013, 07:54 AM

Josh, it may indeed by the sleep deprivation. I think John was trying to play devil's advocate and show what the potential perception would be when your behind is hauled into court.

Operating on your own, I think you're only courting disaster - this is setting up to be an epic case of "no good deed goes unpunished".

If you are willing to spend some of your own cash on legal fees (without any expectation of repayment), I'd consult with some estate attorneys ASAP. Otherwise, I'd be floating a letter to every firm in the phone book asking if they'd consider her case on a pro bono basis. Also call around to folks that might be able to point you in the right direction - Catholic Charities, your state bar association, charities that work with the elderly and/or indigent, etc.

LakeCleElum · 06-04-2013, 07:54 AM

Scott (Scooter) is an attorney and he offered to help in a previous thread. Give him a call. Maybe he can take a reasonable fee after the house sale.

How can she sell the car, but not the house?

RANDY P · RANDY P's Garage

You need to pull a title report on the house. That will tell you everything you need.

Ask the widow if they went through probate when the old man kicked the bucket.

cairns · 06-04-2013, 07:59 AM

FWIW that is awfully noble of you. I'm sure she appreciates all the help you are providing. The answer to no good deed goes unpunished is do good anyway.

Seahawk · 06-04-2013, 08:06 AM

A couple of things.

One, I think you are trying to do the right thing.

There are some basic questions that need to be asked (my wife just went through this with her father who died two months ago and the estate - if you can call it that - was a mess).

Did he have a will?
If so, who is the Executor?
If it is the wife, she can legally appoint you to work through the very issues you are facing. This is very important. Don't do to much more without a defined role. The problem is not you rather the relations that may get antsy with what you are doing.

Nice car, valuable house, skin flint with odd ownership trails, etc. People will imagine all sort of hidden assets and assume you are after the treasure.

All kinds of trouble lurk in estate settling, from which the mother(s) of all unintended consequences spring!

Talk to a lawyer friend and see what he or she thinks. Edit: The best advice my wife got concerning her father's estate was from the funeral home, no kidding.

Good luck.

Aragorn · 06-04-2013, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VaSteve

There are so many under employed lawyers around....find a young hungry one that would do it pro bono for the experience.

My google foo turned up this:

http://www.kcba.org/pbs/legalhelp.aspx

Like the others have said, help to a point but don't help to the point of getting yourself in trouble. Point her in the right direction to get the help she needs. This may not be it but I am sure there are other providers (maybe govt) in the area that have dealt with problems like this and know the route to go.

dad911 · 06-04-2013, 08:39 AM

I have a gut feeling she knows what's going on, playing stupid because it's easier. My mom did the same thing, without dad around, she wanted someone else to handle everything for her.

I'd keep an arms-length away...... her lawyer and accountant should know the scoop, and she should be talking to them.

Must have a lawyer and accountant.... Lawyer prepared his will, probably had accountant for taxes? Who handled the closing/transfer on the house?