Residential Architect question

[yasir]

Been talking to few architects about our project and have few un answered questions:

Architect 1: Doesn't like to work off a plan bought off the internet Charges $90/hour and wants to keep it open as to number of hours it would take to get it done.

Architect 2: First 90 hours @ $150/hour, next 60 hours @ $120/hour and remaining 50 hours @ $80/hour.

Thinks and actually is pretty persistent that it would take at least 200+ hours to get the drawings done.

Would like to be paid any time a drawing set is exchanged?

I want to limit the charge at $15,000 with a reasonable number of hours (100 @ $120/hour).

What do you all think?

Thanks

[kach22i]

yarsir, how large is this house, and in your state do you need it sealed?

Some states have no size limits, some are +3,000 SF, others +5,000 SF.

The idea being larger more complex projects require a seal to protect the public from unqualified practices.

PM or e-mail me to discuss.

[1990C4S]

The problem with a fixed price is the client usually asks for a bunch of changes that that architect can't foresee.

I would pick the one you have the most confidence in, regardless of price. Sounds like you might need to buy 200 hours from the guy that thinks. Offer him $15,000 and be prepared to go higher. I don't really understand the rationale for a sliding scale.

Someone that thinks will save you money down the during construction.

[yasir]

It would be approx 5500 sq ft above ground.
Yes I am going to talk to him and see if we can work something out on a fixed scale as I don't want to give him an open cheque book.
The issue with hourly is, how would you know how good of a job he would/could do and you really can't tell until you get into it.
There's is not much choice we have in KY, when it comes to quality stuff llike that

Thanks for your help though.

[Zeke]

Have you ever worked with an architect before? Doesn't sound like it. No, there shouldn't be an open check book. This is not a deposit depletion car restoration. You should be shown preliminaries after lengthy discussions about your wants and needs. You approve a plan and the details are drawn. There will be questions that come up from both camps. Hopefully, the architect won't create too many of those. Hopefully he won't draw something that can't be built or will cost a fortune in surcharged engineering.

Hopefully you aren't like some I've worked for that say, "I can't see it until I walk through it." Buildings don't look at all the same during construction as they do when finished.

Take advantage of Kach22i's offer.

[id10t]

[scottmandue]

Don't want to hijack but curious.

Can you just buy a premade plan?

I am guessing you have deep pockets and want a total custom home.

I would think it is like building a car from the ground up... very cool idea but I would think it is a lot less expensive to buy something premade with all the engineering already done.

[DanielDudley]

I have to tell you that you are going to spend a boatload building a 5500 sq ft house. And you are already complaining about the guy who is going to make it buildable and accountable to your tastes and needs.

Let's not quibble about a few pennies here. Go large or get the cheaper guy. Or maybe you should go around and look at a few houses designed by these guys. You know, choose the architect based on the fact that he designs things that you admire. People aren't commodities, and they don't all produce identical product.

As a builder, I can tell you that in less than two minutes, you have told me a lot about yourself. A lot of guys might read you and walk away. It is the other guys who stick around that you might want to watch out for.

[Hugh R]

That picture is fabulous and so true!

[kslizzy]

I work a little in-between the two options you first listed.

Client comes in to discuss plan and ideas, I show types of drawings I will produce. Once we agree to begin, I'll work through schematic design by the hour ($105/hr.) By only working with their descriptions and magazine cutouts there is no way we're going to get it right the first time and once we get something on paper the owner may want to adjust or change, we can't foresee those changes. We do the best we can but there are always changes.

Once we all agree on the floor plan and front elevation we start construction drawings. Construction drawings are completed based on finished s.f. of the home. I'll do 'builder' sets for long time clients for $2.25 / s.f. and full custom homes for $3.25 / s.f. Obviously there will be more details involved with the custom and less with the builder set. Sometimes I'll work somewhere between those numbers if the owner has a contractor on board early, then we can work through construction details before hand.

If, after CD's have begun, there are significant changes then we bill accordingly. If it's minor we can usually absorb it, but if they change something big and it domino's through the whole set of drawings then they're paying for it.

Hope that helps.

Kris

[Jferr006]

Do the off the shelf plans come with DWGs? If so that's quick easy money for the architect to modify. I'd find someone willing to work from internet plans. The online plans typically charge you by the set so that's not unreasonable. I've worked on monster houses and unless you have a picky complete PITA client, it's not that time consuming.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Residential is tricky - very often you deal with fickle clients who really don't know what they want, think they do and expect endless revisions as they waffle and change directions. That said, there are pitfalls to dealing with commercial clients too but keep in mind that you will work better with your architect if (1) you can communicate your expectations clearly and succinctly (give him or her enough information to develop a design that suits you) and (2) the architect is a good listener. Most are, some aren't.

I usually negotiate a lump-sum fee with specific deliverables and deviations are handled hourly. Keep in mind you're not just buying the architect's stamp but his/her knowledge, experience, training and that of his entire consultant team. You're buying the services of (potentially) a structural engineer, MEP engineer(s), landscape architect, civil engineer, energy modeler, etc... (possibilities are endless depending on specifics). The architect needs to coordinate and direct all those disciplines and focus their efforts into a coherent and biddable package that also complies with all code requirements, best practices, etc. there is no "one size fits all" solution despite what the "house plans here" books say. They (or prototypes, often used in commercial work) always require adaptation, tweaking and refinement, and that costs money - you'll either pay the architect to get it sorted out ahead of time or you'll pay the contractor to sort it out via change order in the field, but you'll pay for it.

Also, definitely get a sense of how involved the architect is with C.A. (Construction Administration). The better ones will do several field visits at key points during construction, take an active role in overseeing construction and keep up a good working relationship with the contractor. If a particular architect comes off as an "ivory tower" type, be wary - there are ALWAYS issues that come up in the field (no matter how good they are or how much effort is put into the design) and it requires a certain attitude and personality to get those issues resolved quickly, efficiently and inexpensively with consideration for all parties' needs.

I'll make the same offer as Katch - if you want to send me an email with any questions or whatever, we can discuss any specific concerns you have, what you can expect, questions to ask, etc.

Best of luck!

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by id10t

I seem to lose money on changes all the time, and so do many builders.

I recently asked a former employer about this and he gave me a few tips on how to manage this.

I cannot wait to try them out, should work better for both sides.

I've heard of one building outfit which will not make any changes. They build it exactly as drawn, and if you want it changed, you pay up front and they rip out the old work and rebuilt that part. Seems wasteful but prevents a lot of unnecessary changes from happening.

The 5,000 SF house I have going up in North Dakota had so many changes that I hardly recognized it. The building inspector was there and asked me for "As-Built" drawings which is unheard of in residential. They later backed down, the owner is an attorney and convinced the locals that the outside inspector/consultant didn't understand their ways.

[dad911]

Originally Posted by kach22i

I seem to lose money on changes all the time, and so do many builders.

I recently asked a former employer about this and he gave me a few tips on how to manage this.

I cannot wait to try them out, should work better for both sides.

I've heard of one building outfit which will not make any changes. They build it exactly as drawn, and if you want it changed, you pay up front and they rip out the old work and rebuilt that part. Seems wasteful but prevents a lot of unnecessary changes from happening.

The 5,000 SF house I have going up in North Dakota had so many changes that I hardly recognized it. The building inspector was there and asked me for "As-Built" drawings which is unheard of in residential. They later backed down, the owner is an attorney and convinced the locals that the outside inspector/consultant didn't understand their ways.

Very different around here. Used to only need as-builts for structural changes, now they want them for simple non-structural changes.

[PeteBrown]

The architects that can get away with it charge 15% of gross construction costs, excluding interior decorating but they usually have a big book of business with a very select group of high net worth clients.

Custom high end architects often charge 10% of gross and are very involved in the entire construction process or bidding contractors, overseeing the jobsite and reviewing all billing including change orders. When business is slow they will convert to an hourly rate and sometimes cap the fee not to exceed "x." Note: these are not projects of $125/sf but most likely starting at $250/sf, & up.

Coming from two generations of architects.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by PeteBrown

The architects that can get away with it charge 15% of gross construction costs, excluding interior decorating but they usually have a big book of business with a very select group of high net worth clients.

Custom high end architects often charge 10% of gross and are very involved in the entire construction process or bidding contractors, overseeing the jobsite and reviewing all billing including change orders. When business is slow they will convert to an hourly rate and sometimes cap the fee not to exceed "x." Note: these are not projects of $125/sf but most likely starting at $250/sf, & up.

Coming from two generations of architects.

This is all pre-Great Recession data, right?

I never was really part of that world, heard of it, dreamed of it, but never saw it up close.

What are the numbers these days?

And if you are getting that, I'm coming down to Ohio this weekend with my portfolio in hand.

[PeteBrown]

Not me - I can't draw. Just speaking from family experience and this is only for the top 3-6 architects in the city. Today's market is slower but there are still a few big projects out there.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by kach22i

I seem to lose money on changes all the time, and so do many builders.

I recently asked a former employer about this and he gave me a few tips on how to manage this.

I cannot wait to try them out, should work better for both sides.

I've heard of one building outfit which will not make any changes. They build it exactly as drawn, and if you want it changed, you pay up front and they rip out the old work and rebuilt that part. Seems wasteful but prevents a lot of unnecessary changes from happening.

The 5,000 SF house I have going up in North Dakota had so many changes that I hardly recognized it. The building inspector was there and asked me for "As-Built" drawings which is unheard of in residential. They later backed down, the owner is an attorney and convinced the locals that the outside inspector/consultant didn't understand their ways.

I had a store owner come in and ask for a new wall already built to be moved. I told him that the wall was on the plans and would have to be resubmitted. (That may not have really been true.) I asked him why it needed to be moved and why he didn't think of it before if he had any logical reason. His answer was that plans meant nothing to him. He needed to walk the job to know what he wanted.

He's not the only one.

A change order is a tough thing. First of all, the plans have to be complete, not vague in any way. As soon as an idea pops up about changing something, the change has to be identified as different than the original. The original spec is described and then the replacement spec is described along with the time required to achieve the change.

This is where some make their money. There is no credit for the original spec not being built but there is a charge for the new item. Now, if work has started on the original, then there will be a charge to remove it. This gets into double and triple billing. The original contract spells this all out so there is no dispute about the procedure for changes and how they will be billed.

Personally I hate changes unless something isn't really going to work. I have run into a few situations where that was the case plain and simple. I consider part of my job as a contractor to recognize these problems before it is necessary to start reworking something. Do it once and do it right.

Even if you have to do it differently.

[LakeCleElum]

Shop around....I went to high school with a guy that does this as a side job - his primary career is in Urban Planning.

I built a 2,500 sq ft house with a 1,650 sq ft garage......He charged me $960 for the plans drawn from a sketch I made.....The Building Inspector required an "Engineer" to OK wind sheer design....The Engineer charged an additional $347.....

Ask your county building inspector....sometimes they will give you a list of local guys they will work with..........

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by LakeCleElum

.......... a guy that does this as a side job.

All these side job people, so-called retired guys, students, mail order plans and so forth is why it sucks trying to earn a living as an architect.

In addition the American culture just will not support the "Art", a lack of patrons which have an appreciation for architecture over that of McMansions.