Employee trying to get fired

[stomachmonkey]

You guys should get a refresher in HR 101.

Patrick wants to let her go but he does not want her to qualify for UI because she does not deserve it.

Patrick has already allowed the work from home precedent. He will need to deal with that going forward but for this situation the genie is out of the bottle.

In most circumstances you can not just start discriminating against an employee, IE, treat them different from the policies you have either officially set in an employee manual or unofficially set through previous action.

You also can not just cut her pay. This may come as a surprise to some of you but (depending on your states regs) you can be employed, as in go to work 5 days a week for 40 hours a week and qualify for UI if your employer does not pay you for a period of time.

Getting rid of her is as easy as telling her she is terminated but then she applies for UI.

Getting her UI app denied (depending on state regs) could be as simple as telling the Employment Office no but most likely requires documentation.

If you want to get rid of an employee without paying UI or getting sued then follow the process. Provide write up, give 30 days to cure, employee either falls back in line or does not, if they do not then separate.

You don't play games.

Patrick, if you do not have one then I highly recommend you create and distribute an Employee Manual and for future hires make "ability to work in office x days/hours" a condition of employment in their job description or you'll have to deal with this again in the future.

[wdfifteen]

The attorney said what many of you said. Trying to entice her to quit will come back to bite us, there is no alternative to firing her. So we started the countdown per our employee manual today with the verbal warning. Next is the written warning, then suspension, then bye bye and see what her lawyer has to say about it when we dispute her benefit claim. I told her to be sure to bring her phone and computer to our meeting and she "forgot" them at home. She's defiant at every turn. She's gone one way or another.

[mdj930]

"She's gone one way or another"
Looks like she never had a chance to change her ways. I would think if you hired someone you would want them to succeed. I don't know HER motivation but wouldn't you first try to get her on track to being a good salesperson.
Best of luck hope you don't get stuck with the unemployment bill.
Mike

[fintstone]

Just send her a link to this thread. She will get the message.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by mdj930

"She's gone one way or another"
Looks like she never had a chance to change her ways. I would think if you hired someone you would want them to succeed. I don't know HER motivation but wouldn't you first try to get her on track to being a good salesperson.

We bought her a laptop computer so she could work at home while she convalesced. We allowed her to work at home instead of giving her unpaid medical leave. She ignored instructions to report to the office by phone every day and lied to us about her activities. How can a salesperson who sells over the phone "work" 102 hours and only spend 47 minutes on the phone?
If she was going to succeed she had to put some effort into it and if we were to continue to help her she would have to start being honest with us.

[stomachmonkey]

Patrick does not strike me as the type of individual to not give people more than fair shot.

From what I know of him from this board I'd say he's in this situation because he's a good guy and not because he's an *******.

[scottmandue]

Tell her the office is going "clothing optional"

Threads like this make me glad I'm not in management.

Best of luck Patrick

PS, We had a guy at work have a mental breakdown... I feel bad for him... crying at his desk, hiding in the corner, yelling at people, telling HR that people here at work were ploting to kill him.
He has been out on sick leave for over a month.
We are a seven person shop and losing one guys isn't too bad except that we are open seven days so on Sundays there are only two techs on duty.
My wife is all "why don't they just let him go and hire another tech?"... um... yeah...

[lane912]

what I would do-
wright up a very detailed action plan that sets specific detailed goals for attendance and performance during her next 30 days. this plan would also state that any deviation from the plan would result in immediate dismissal. I would then invite her in for a meeting between her and I with two witnesses where we would discuss her strong points and the problems that have been occurring and go over the action plan in a way that felt as I am wanting her to improve and become a valued employee. then watch her closely and on the first deviation from the plan hand her a check and explain it was her last day-

[lane912]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

Tell her the office is going "clothing optional"

Threads like this make me glad I'm not in management.

Best of luck Patrick

PS, We had a guy at work have a mental breakdown... I feel bad for him... crying at his desk, hiding in the corner, yelling at people, telling HR that people here at work were ploting to kill him.
He has been out on sick leave for over a month.
We are a seven person shop and losing one guys isn't too bad except that we are open seven days so on Sundays there are only two techs on duty.
My wife is all "why don't they just let him go and hire another tech?"... um... yeah...

we had a team member milk medical leave for three years fully knowing he could not perform at the level he did before brain surgury. he would come in and try, but just cause more work for the rest of the team. he was finaly told to just stay home. then a year it took to get him off the books propperly so he could not sue us for wrongfull termination. then we could hire a replacement.

[Iciclehead]

I have been reluctant to step in here as the US laws are different, but you are getting some good advice here. Document and making expectations clear are key, so go through with that and see where it takes you over the short term - I can't improve on the advice others have given you.

But one point....from a guy who is a hatchet man by trade and has fired way too many people in his career....as much as you don't like this person getting unemployment or some other form of unjust enrichment, you may as well just get over it and fire them, let them collect their bit of coin and move on.

Your lost productivity, the impact on your team, the lost productivity when compared to hiring a capable person in almost every case outweighs the penalty incurred for just paying your pound of flesh and moving on.

There is a tendency to focus on the individual in question when in fact the greater liability and detriment to the organization is with the rest of the folks, there is a thing like the survivors complex that people actually look at how so and so was treated and then take time to internalize that (which whacks productivity as people sit around playing "Ain't it awful"), before finally getting on with life again and doing their job.

Plus a fresh face of the right type can be a positive influence....just do a good job at replacement.

Dennis

PS - I have also had a number of times where employees came to me after I toasted someone and said "its about time"

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by lane912

what I would do-
wright up a very detailed action plan that sets specific detailed goals for attendance and performance during her next 30 days.

This is pretty much what happened to me. My boss and I worked out a very reasonable and doable action plan to right the ship, although there was no bringing back my two biggest clients, who had simply stopped spending. I had to have so many calls a day and meetings per week, opportunities in the pipeline, etc. He sent me an email to recap the discussion with everything laid out in bullet points, asked me to reply that I concurred. Three days later I got the official write up and everything in the previous email was doubled or tripled, which pretty much meant there was no way to achieve those goals and I needed to be looking for another job. In fact, I was in the barber shop getting a haircut for an interview when that write-up came across on my Blackberry.

[wdfifteen]

Thanks Dennis. It's a sticky situation, and laws here are sketchy on this matter. She was off getting minor leg surgery and now her doctors say she can come to work, but she says she can't. Firing her immediately makes us look callous which is bad for company morale ("You fired me because I was sick!"). Plus it could leave us open to legal action from her. Our employee manual spells out how much sick time a person can have before action is taken and she isn't at the limit yet. But we know she is lying to us about her condition and milking this.
She is dumb enough to post her activities on her Facebook page and we have her phone records. The activities she talks about on facebook and her phone records starkly contradict her claims of her inability to work. For example, she claims she can't drive to work (1 hr commute) but she took a 250 mile drive to visit relatives. During the latest pay period she reported 102 hours of work while only spending 47 minutes on the phone and making only 45% of her sales this time last year when she worked 80 hours, but she was able to make the 250 mile trip and travel 70 miles to watch the Bengals play the Jets. You don't walk up the steps of a football stadium if you are truly suffering from a recent leg surgery.
I hear you about not focusing on the individual. We bent over backwards to help her get through her illness without an impact to her income or productivity and we have been repaid with lies and deceit. It's hard not to take it personally, but I know you are right - we should not.

[berettafan]

Employee manuals, signed and documented offenses against same.

Manual should state how many offenses are allowed prior to dismissal.

If she's truly gaming you your employees know more about it than you do so i wouldn't worry about morale being impacted. In fact if anything it is impacted negatively by not taking positive action in this situation. She is laying out a road map for other slackers in your office.