Lets talk Black Poweder Spoons

futuresoptions · 11-12-2013, 12:21 PM

David's thread about his new spoon has gotten me interested in purchasing a Black powder long spoon. I would like something that I could cast my own rounds, make my own powder and only have to purchase percussion caps.

I would like to find something modern, accurate and easy to clean.

What would you suggest and why? Thanks

id10t · 11-12-2013, 12:26 PM

I'd been looking at a pretty, brass-framed BP revolver in the case at Shattuck's Hardware for a couple of months, and boy! Was I ever proud the day I went in and plunked down the money for it! Eleven dollars in one dollar bills... and eighteen dollars in quarter and dimes. Old Man Shattuck was a great old guy, whose eyesight, thankfully, had gotten really bad over the years... he didn't recognize me as he sold me the .36 caliber pistol... he even threw in a box of pure lead balls with the pistol and percussion caps when I bought the pound of black powder.

I told Mr. Shattuck that I was anxious to shoot it and was heading straight for the dump, and asked him to show me how to load the gun. "It's pretty simple," I recall his telling me. "You measure your powder into the cylinder chamber, put a bullet over it, ram it down in with the hinged thing under the barrel, put your cap over a nipple, and you're set to shoot." I thanked him for his help and headed for the door.

"One last thing!" he called to me as I was running out the door, "Don't forget to put grease over your balls! Crisco works fine!" I didn't understand the need for the last part, but I stopped at Tony's Grocery and bought a little blue can of Crisco grease. And now... to the dump! Where bottles and cans, rats and crows were just waiting for this ol' cowboy to do 'em in!

I replayed Mr. Shattuck's instructions in my head as I laid out all my gear on the smothed-out, brown paper bag at my feet. The first thing I realized was that I didn't have anything to measure the powder with... UNTIL I remembered my knife! I carried one of those folding stag handled camper's knives- you know, the ones with a fork on one side and a spoon on the other? The spoon was perfect for what I needed! Very carefully (thank heaven there wasn't any wind blowing) I poured a spoonful of powder from the can into the spoon, then tipped the spoon up and tapped the powder into the cylinder. Sure, I spilled a bunch over because the spoon held so much more, but what the heck! Powder was cheap, back then... and I had plenty to spare...

Being a methodical kind of kid, I filled all six chambers with the powder, managing to spill as much around my feet, I suppose, as I was getting into the cylinder. I can laugh now, but when I bent over to get the bullets all the powder fell out of the cylinders onto my boots... so I had to fill them all over again! I managed to get all the chambers filled with powder and then stuck a bullet into the first cylinder... I had to really tap it in with my knife to get it started... then shoved it in as far as it would go with the rammer thing. I lost a little powder in the process, but eventually I had all six chambers loaded and ready to go. Then I put percussion caps over the things sticking out the ends of the cylinders... Oops! I forgot a couple of things!

Now, I'll admit my ignorance about a lot of things... but why I was supposed to smear Crisco on my balls is still a mystery to me. But I figured Old Man Shattuck knew what he was about, so I looked around to make sure I was alone, then dropped my pants to my knees, opened the can of Crisco and began to smear it over Lefty and Righty. Standing there in the hot summer sun, slowly massaging soft, silky grease into my scrotum... gee WHIZ! I guess the old man knew what he was talking about after all ! Welcome to the joys of shooting!

I had to force myself out of my reverie...

One last thing and then I'd be ready to shoot... I took my baseball cap off and stuffed it inside my shirt over my left nipple. Okay... I guessed I was ready (except, of course, that in my haste I'd forgotten to pull up my pants...)

Well sir, I crooked my left am out in front of my face, rested the trigger guard of the pistol in my right hand on it, drew a tight bead on an old Four Roses bottle, and squeezed the trigger. I remember a bright flash, a burning sensation on my arm and face, then something hit me square in the forehead and the lights went out.

It must have been quite sometime later when I awoke. I was laid out across the back seat of Sheriff Miller's car (I knew this from the plexi-glass partition and a previous ride when I'd been sixteen), the rider's side door was open and my feet and lower legs were hanging out. As I raised my head to look for the source of the voices I heard I felt like someone had hit me in the head with a sledgehammer. I could see two men in the dim, evening light, just outside the door and within my range of vision. At least, I thought they were two men... I could hear two speaking but they were sorta spinning around and they looked like six. From the voices I knew they were Sheriff Miller and my Dad... "... busy on another call so the volunteer fire department was the first out here," I heard the Sheriff explaining to my dad. "Mabel Krutchner called it in... said she saw smoke comin' from the dump and had heard an awful explosion over this way."

"Near as I can tell from what the firemen say, when they got here they found your boy lying over there. At first they thought he was dead. The dump was on fire all around him, his left arm and face were all black, his boots were scorched pretty badly, he had a HUGE knot on his forehead where somebody'd cold-cocked him... And... well, we think the boy's been... well, taken advantage of."

"What do you mean 'Taken advantage of?'" I heard my dad ask.

"Well, Al, it's like this," the Sheriff said. "The first men to get to your boy said he was unconscious; they found part of a gun by his body; his pants were down around his ankles, his crotch was smeared with KY Jelly and he was sportin' a big boner..."

Then I heard Mr. Shattuck's voice. "I always knew there was something wrong with that boy...This will probably keep him out of the army..."

And THAT'S why I don't shoot black powder...

futuresoptions · 11-12-2013, 12:45 PM

Lol!

cashflyer · 11-12-2013, 01:28 PM

For ease of cleaning, buy a stainless firearm and use pyrodex instead of black powder.

Fwiw:
My father and I had bad luck with brass framed revolvers, as the brass is soft and the works will eventually get loosened up. Kind of sucks when a cylinder does not index properly.

Our favorite revolver was a Ruger Old Army. .45 cal, cap & ball. Full steel frame and target sites. Damned rugged. But Ruger no longer produces it, so you'll have to watch Gun Broker for a good one. They were made in blue or stainless.

futuresoptions · 11-12-2013, 01:47 PM

Hey Cash,

I am wanting a rifle. Modern, so stainless with composite stock would be fine. Just interested in what everyone recommends as far as the newer black powder rifles on the market. Isn't Pyrodex modern powder used in shells these days?

scottmandue · 03:20 PM

I have no experience... but seemed to remeber Thompson put out a modern black powder rifle.

A quick search and came up with this... looks like a fun!

Found a better link, scroll down the page to the muzzle loaders.

http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/

John Rogers · 11-12-2013, 05:00 PM

For black powder rifles you pretty much have two choices: cartridge guns such as a 45-70 Sharps and/or muzzle loaders. If you have never shot any BP then I'd say go with a muzzle loader such as one of the many copies of a Hawken which can be bought for several hundred dollars. They shoot patched round balls, usually with 70 grains of Goex FFG, #11 percussion caps and are very easy to take care of. You can start out buying the round balls, try sabots and then move into making your own from pure lead.

You can make a 1 pound can last for 100 or more shots and if you decide this is fun then move into the long range Gibbs type muzzle loaders or the cartridge guns like the 45-70, 45-90 or 45-110 models like a Rolling Block or 1874 Sharps copy. The cartridge guns can take 6 months or more to get a very accurate load but are a very fun challenge and getting the cases reloaded is harder than you can imagine!

For cleaning a muzzle loader make a mixture of 1 part each: Murphy's Oil Soap, Hydrogen Peroxide and pure alcohol. Squirt some down the barrel, swab it out with several wet patches then dry it well and oil until next time.

There are many websites that cover this stuff such as:
Cast Boolits
American Longrifles - Home - a site dedicated to the study and building of the American longrifle
Log Cabin Sport Shop Online Store
MBS Online Catalog
General Muzzleloading (Forum list) - Traditional Muzzleloading Forum - Muzzleloader Flintlock Black Powder

I am on the right in this one.

Skytrooper · Skytrooper's Garage

I have owned and hunted with a .54 cal. muzzleloading rifle for 20+ years. I love it ! It is very accurate...as a rifle should be. If you care for it properly it will provide years of enjoyment. I also own and shoot a .36 cal 5 shot revolver that is black powder. I opted to stay away from anything with a brass frame as they are the weak link. Mine has a full steel frame and I have used it for about 28 years now. It is a fun little pistol

cashflyer · 11-12-2013, 05:09 PM

My father has a Thompson Center "hawkin" rifle... has had it for a few decades and really likes it. Most people now seem to gravitate to the inline ignition rather than the old style exposed hammers. Other than that, I can't say much about the rifles.

Henry Schmidt · Henry Schmidt's Garage

I have a "like new" Harrington and Richardson Huntsman .45 cal black powder rifle that I would be willing to part with.
Target sights, bullet mold and may have never been fired. Let's talk.

I also have a Ruger Old Army. .45 cal, cap & ball that I might be willing to sell.

targa911S · 11-12-2013, 06:11 PM

I believe Thompson is owned by S&W now. The ones we sell the most of are CVA's.

futuresoptions · 11-12-2013, 06:16 PM

Hi Henry, Really like the look of that Harrington and Richardson.. PM Sent

futuresoptions · 11-12-2013, 06:44 PM

Hey David, maybe you or one of the other guys can answer this question for me. I have often wondered why all I can find black powder long spoons available in is either .45, .50 or .54 cablibers? I know you said your new BP spoon is .31 caliber...

I think it would be cool to have a long spoon in either .30, .27 or even .22 so that you could use off the market projectiles for it.

I have even considered taking a pardner .410 break open shotgun and somehow modifying a 10-22 barrel into it to where it could be used as a .22 BP spoon. Stupid idea I know, just thought it would be cool...

John Rogers · 11-12-2013, 07:19 PM

There are bore sizes all the way from 22 caliber (rook matches) up to 4 bore double guns that are monsters! I would try to find some local BP shooters to see what they have, use and recommend. The normal bore sizes of 45, 50, 69 are used as they are much more common and easy to get balls or bullets for. I forget the conversions from shotgun bore sizes but we do have some who shoot .410, 20 or 16 ga with patched round balls. They then use the guns in the BP trap shoots too.

We have a couple shooters at our matches that shoot 30 caliber percussion long rifles but some times the steel target will not fall over.

futuresoptions · 11-12-2013, 07:31 PM

Hey John,

I have never seen BP long rifles with calibers as low .22 I just figured that it would be really cool to have something like that to tinker / plink with because you could make a few pounds of lead and a jug of powder go a long way...

Henry Schmidt · Henry Schmidt's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by futuresoptions

Hey David, maybe you or one of the other guys can answer this question for me. I have often wondered why all I can find black powder long spoons available in is either .45, .50 or .54 cablibers? I know you said your new BP spoon is .31 caliber...

I think it would be cool to have a long spoon in either .30, .27 or even .22 so that you could use off the market projectiles for it.

I have even considered taking a pardner .410 break open shotgun and somehow modifying a 10-22 barrel into it to where it could be used as a .22 BP spoon. Stupid idea I know, just thought it would be cool...

People do crazy chit. I have a black powder conversion for a 1911. I understand it shot pretty well.

futuresoptions · 11-12-2013, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt

People do crazy chit. I have a black powder conversion for a 1911. I understand it shot pretty well.

Henry, I think that qualifies for the craziest 1911 conversion that I have ever seen!
Would really make a cool piece for when you need to harvest trapped hogs.

id10t · 11-13-2013, 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by futuresoptions

Hey David, maybe you or one of the other guys can answer this question for me. I have often wondered why all I can find black powder long spoons available in is either .45, .50 or .54 cablibers? I know you said your new BP spoon is .31 caliber...

I think it would be cool to have a long spoon in either .30, .27 or even .22 so that you could use off the market projectiles for it.

I have even considered taking a pardner .410 break open shotgun and somehow modifying a 10-22 barrel into it to where it could be used as a .22 BP spoon. Stupid idea I know, just thought it would be cool...

The big resurgance of BP shooting is probably mostly due to extended/early deer seasons when using "primative" weapons. Billy Joe Jim Bob Redneck Jr doesn't wanna give up his remosschester deer rifle, so the inline muzzle loaders came into being. And most states require 45 (or larger) as a minimum caliber to hunt deer with, so that is what you see a lot of and supplies for at places like WalMart.

That said, there are plenty of 31 and 36 caliber rifles out there - you are looking at what is considered a squirrel gun. And they won't be inlines, or using shotgun primers instead of #11 percussion caps - they'll be flint or #11 charged.

Jeff Higgins · 11-13-2013, 06:35 AM

I consider myself a fairly avid black powder shooter. At the height of my mid and long range match shooting career, I was going through three cases of powder a year. I no longer compete, so now I'm down to maybe a case a year. I use it in everything from 19th century cartridge revolvers, to percussion revolvers, to single shot breech loaders, to lever guns, to muzzle loaders. I've been shooting black powder guns since I was a kid - the very first metallic cartridge reloading I ever did was for the .45 Colt with black powder and bullets I cast myself. I can't even remember exactly how old I was... maybe 12? Dad's and uncles' guns...

Anyhoo, with that background, I'll tell you right now - I have some strong feelings about black powder shooting. Particularly with regards to the direction it has taken in the last couple of decades. I absolutely abhor, and have less than no use for, all of the modern contivances designed to make life easier for the black powder shooter. The modern in-line guns, the sabots they shoot, the substitue powders, all of it - all of it serves to diminish the experience, to detract from the real accomplishment of making it work. Kind of like the discussion we are having on the thread about all of the bodies on Everest - the climb, now that there are ropes all the way up, is nowhere near the "accomplishment" it used to be.

To me, "muzzle loader" deer and elk seasons should be "primitive weapon", such as in Pennsylvania (who require flint locks, real black powder, and round ball only - no in-lines, no sabots, no substitute powders). Game departments now allow everything right up to sealed breech bolt action stainless steel scoped rifles shooting smokeless powder and jacketed bullets, as long as they load from the front (regulations vary by state - this is the worst example) to be used during "muzzle loader" seasons. This has spawned a whole new industry of "modern muzzle loading". Talk about a contrived bunch of b.s.

If you want the full experience, there is no reason not to go with a traditional rifle. Do get a cap lock, but make it a traditional side hammer, browned or blued steel, wood stocked one. There are plenty of good ones to choose from. There is no reason to fear that these are in any way inaccurate, unreliable, hard to clean, or any of those other old wive's tales that drive so many to "modern" muzzle loaders. I have muzzle loaders that will shoot 2" groups at 100 yards at will, shooting round ball or, in the right gun, very heavy conical bullets. I can clean any of them faster than you can clean your bolt gun. I have never, even in 30+ years of hunting with them off and on up here in the Pacific Northwest, had one rust.

Black powder remains, even in the face of all the modern substitutes, the very best propellent for these guns. In all of my years of match shooting, I never saw a substitute (where allowed) even begin to match the accuracy of the real deal. I've lost track of how many 600 yard NRA targets I've "cleaned" and have seen "cleaned" with black powder cartridge guns shooting black powder. I've never seen a substitute do it. And, by the way, contrary to advertising and popular myth, the cleanup is the same regardless. The substitutes do not gain you anything here.

In summary, I would go with a traditional side hammer cap lock. Get one with a slow round ball twist, like 1:60 or slower. I would not go under .45 even for just a plinker - the smaller bores are more difficult, and may be rightly reserved for more experienced shooters. Oh, and please - don't even try to make your own powder. Just buy it - Coonies in New Mexico, Buffalo Arms in Idaho, and others sell it and UPS will deliver it right to your doorstep.

John Rogers · 11-13-2013, 08:59 AM

There is one small item that no one has mentioned yet and it is very handy, especially to folks like me that live in a background check state. Muzzle loaders and reproductions such as those by Pedersoli or Cimmaron do not require a FFL or any type of background check or waiting period! This is not an issue in Texas but in many states it can be.

As I suggested, try to find some BP shooters at a range near where you live and spend a day or two with them. See what they shoot, what they like and why and beware of those who say there is only one way, my way, to do things! Once you do some shooting, the smell will stick with you a long time and you'll want to go back for more.