Sporting gun quality going down the toilet fast

[berettafan]

Was in my favorite local gun shop last night browsing through the used and new guns looking for a shotgun that spoke to me. I lamented the increasing difficulty in finding quality wood and nice bluing. Owner says it's only going to get worse. In short the used gun market is going to see a serious push upward as new gun quality goes down the toilet.

A great example is Marlin's latest version of the 336. Now has a finish very much like the 870 express. And an older 870 express is darn near nice looking compared to Rem's latest pump.

I think it's time to start loading up on old Wingmasters and the like that were built when men were men and guns were beautiful to look at and handle. I am on a personal quest to start collecting more Beretta 390's, Wingmasters and possibly

[Jim Richards]

What do you think is behind the drop in quality?

[ben parrish]

$$

[onewhippedpuppy]

Outsourcing?

[targa911S]

man you are SOOOO right. I would be buying all the old Marlin rifles I could get my hands on. Then start with Remington 870 wing masters and 1100's. Remingtons quality has hit an all time low and now that they own Marlin as well they are headed for the toilet as well. Why??? Because we still buy it. Crap or not people still buy the "name". Remingtons rifles are crap as well. Poor fit and finish terrible quality control.

[Jeff Higgins]

There is a perceived value in sporting firearms that the buying public will not exceed. They want to pay the same price for a new rifle that they paid 20-30 years ago. They can, but the fit and finish will necessarily be of far lower quality. Keeping up with inflation, yesterday's polished blue and walnut sporting rifle would have to sell in the $1,500 - $2,000 range, at least. Folks won't pay that. If you are willing to do so, however, there are still some very nice rifles and shotguns in that price range.

Witness the new Winchest lever guns coming out of Japan. Against today's competition, they are stunning. Very nicely fit and finished. The lowly '94 is, however, all of a $1,200 (or more) gun. It's no better than a pre-war '94, but it sure looks better against whatever else is available today. If folks were willing to pay that for "just" a 336, it could be equally nice. There aren't, so it isn't.

[VincentVega]

So true. I picked up the cheapest 870 express recently. I wasnt expecting much and that' what I got. I'd been looking for a used older version but prices were way more than I wanted to pay.

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

Many issues, some mentioned.

There is also demand outstripping supply, fear, fear mongering, and a general demand for the plastic guns. People do not look at the wooden pieces of art they just see plastic. Sort of like the cars in the '80s....

[KaptKaos]

Gun makers are targeting the COD generation with their polymer everythings, with picatinny rails on their picatinny rails. The younger generation buys more, and more frequently, and price is a factor.

I was chatting with a guy about a Kel Tec SU16 a few weeks ago. I finally had a chance to handle one at a LGS, and it's almost entirely plastic. The design is quite novel, and it takes AR mags, but I am not sure it will last 20-30 years. Handing it down to your kids may be a problem. But they sell, and Kel Tec is back ordered on just about everything.

I think you're seeing the commoditization of the industry. Disposable rifles, not much unlike a bic lighter, or a honda civic. No real artistic value, but they go bang, and will last a while, but certainly aren't worth collecting.

There are other political reasons why some of this may be happening as well, but we'd have to head over to that other "area" to address those.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally Posted by targa911S

I would be buying all the old Marlin rifles I could get my hands on.

The "Marlin" stuff coming out of the Remington plant is reprehensible.

[Taz's Master]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

There is a perceived value in sporting firearms that the buying public will not exceed. They want to pay the same price for a new rifle that they paid 20-30 years ago. They can, but the fit and finish will necessarily be of far lower quality. Keeping up with inflation, yesterday's polished blue and walnut sporting rifle would have to sell in the $1,500 - $2,000 range, at least. Folks won't pay that. If you are willing to do so, however, there are still some very nice rifles and shotguns in that price range.

Witness the new Winchest lever guns coming out of Japan. Against today's competition, they are stunning. Very nicely fit and finished. The lowly '94 is, however, all of a $1,200 (or more) gun. It's no better than a pre-war '94, but it sure looks better against whatever else is available today. If folks were willing to pay that for "just" a 336, it could be equally nice. There aren't, so it isn't.

For many people, a deer rifle is a tool. They might shoot 3 rounds every year to make sure the scope's crosshairs cross where the bullet hits, and then carry it around in the woods for a few days. If the first couple of times they use it on live game they are able to cleanly harvest the animal, it becomes "the best" round to use. If the first time or two they hit the animal poorly and it gets away, the round is "no good for...". If they don't have to adjust the scope for several years it's a "great gun", or a "tack driver". And quite frankly, if you can shoot it, the deer doesn't know if the bullet came out of a Howa or a Sako. It is tough to compete with the utility of a Thompson Center Venture, reliable, accurate, cheap. As far as usefulness, it can be difficult to justify the $1200 for a model 94 in .30-30 over what $500 will buy you in plastic and weather-guard steel.

I'd still rather haul around blued steel, walnut and look through Leupold glass.

I'm not convinced firearms are good investments, (I guess like just about anything you can make $ if you buy low and sell high), but a quality firearm will make a nice inheritance. If the used market adjusts for quality, well just thinking about that makes me want a Savage 99, and a Winchester 88, and a Remington 81...

[berettafan]

My guy had a bicentennial edition Wingmaster, 28" mod vent rib in beautiful shape asking $580.

That's strong money for a fixed choke Wingmaster BUT the 28" mod bbl is great for ducks/dove so it'll likely sell. Sorely tempted to buy it and would've had it been $380 or so.

Used to turn my nose up at Browning Golds but may start keeping an eye out for those now too.

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by KaptKaos

Gun makers are targeting the COD generation with their polymer everythings, with picatinny rails on their picatinny rails. The younger generation buys more, and more frequently, and price is a factor.

I was chatting with a guy about a Kel Tec SU16 a few weeks ago. I finally had a chance to handle one at a LGS, and it's almost entirely plastic. The design is quite novel, and it takes AR mags, but I am not sure it will last 20-30 years. Handing it down to your kids may be a problem. But they sell, and Kel Tec is back ordered on just about everything.

I expect cheese when the word 'tactical' might be associated with a gun but for sporting long guns it is just so darned obvious when quality isn't there. You're right though, I see people at gun stores now actually considering dropping good money on the most horrible looking guns....I guess if you didn't shoot when guns were built nice you have no point of reference.

[gr8fl4porsche]

I picked up a new Browning pump for around $500 in May.

I found the gun to be much nicer than I would expect for 5 bills.

I went with the BPS as there are many complaints on the newer 870's not being what they used to be.

[matt711]

I think the quality of blueing comes down to cost. The better the metal is polished the better the blue turns out. It can take a long time to get a really good finish prior to the blueing and that time costs money. Look at what a professional refinishing shop is able to turn out for customers willing to pay for the labor. Similar to why a great paint job costs so much, all the labor and prep is expensive.

[on2wheels52]

Older Winchesters do it for me. But don't see many come through my place.
Jim

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by berettafan

Used to turn my nose up at Browning Golds but may start keeping an eye out for those now too.

UPDATE-

Nearly new in box Browning Gold en route!!!

[Jeff Higgins]

I have had a hankering to pick up a little .22 autoloading pistol for awhile now. I've looked at dozens over the last several months, both in the gun shops and at the gun shows. Meh - nothing tickled my fancy. Lots of matte finished, plastic adorned junk. Lots of vastly over-priced older stuff - note: not every old gun is "collectable"...

So, Saturday at the gun show, I finally found it. "It" is a beautiful early '60's manufacture High Standard Sport King at a fair price. Original box, manual, warranty card, and receipt. Beautiful condition. Paid less than I would have for many new pistols of far lesser quality.

[berettafan]

A buddy recently picked up a Beretta .22 with very pretty bluing and wood grips. Was shocked at how nice it looks though not terribly excited about accuracy.

I understand the .22lr revolvers are pretty nice too.

[porsche4life]

Originally Posted by berettafan

UPDATE-

Nearly new in box Browning Gold en route!!!

excellent choice. From what I can tell, Browning is still putting out some high quality spoons. But you pay up for them...