Car Recalls

[jcommin]

Is it a coincidence that since GM has come clean with their massive recall for a faulty ignition switch, Toyota and BMW have announced massive recalls on their cars?

[recycled sixtie]

I think it makes a lot of sense to admit that there are problems rather than deny there are problems(eg. older Chrsyler vans with bad transmissions, Nissan suv's with rust). I would likely buy a car from the same manufacturer if it fixes problems for free
rather than being in denial mode. It's just good pr .G.

[KNS]

Toyota was recently fined 1.2 billion for their recall "cover ups" and delays in issuing recalls. I'm sure that got the attention of the other manufacturers.

[Crowbob]

Originally Posted by jcommin

Is it a coincidence that since GM has come clean with their massive recall for a faulty ignition switch, Toyota and BMW have announced massive recalls on their cars?

I don't think they're related. Toyota has been accelerating their recalls (and vice versa, lately) for quite a while now, even before they were hit with the $B+ fine (payoff?). Toyota lost significant market share a while back so they upped their quality standards to tweak their customer satisfaction rankings.

I rememeber being chided by my GM fanboy friends for Toyota's recalls. I hear crickets now.

Don't know about BMW due to my pay scale.

[sc_rufctr]

Whatever the reason they seem to more public and more common now. Maybe it's about the legal issues in not coming clean with a serious flaw?

All good news for us for the consumer.

[mattdavis11]

Not a coincidence, it's a positive correlation. There is a company that manufactures parts and supplies all three auto manufacturers with those parts. That company is Denso.

Toyota designed the Vibe, and also shared a facility in Cali with GM. The net could then be widely cast, and Toyota issued recalls to cover their behind. BMW also is supplied by Denso, so they followed suit.

Denso is responsible for manufacturing sub standard parts since 2000ish, which is in alignment with their affiliation with GM.

Denso was once a great company, but I wouldn't buy OEM Denso replacement parts for my 91 LandCruiser or 2000 Camry because they are no longer a manufacturer of quality parts. The downhill slope all started around 2000. Take a look at a/c compressor failures over the past 15 years, #1 world wide, GM Trucks/SUV's, all manufactured by Denso. The problem, two retaining pins on the valve plates. Why did they not pin them like they always had before? My guess is they were inundated by the request from GM and quality went out the window.

3 car manufacturers use a common supplier, the parts suck, they all issue recalls. That's not a coincidence, it's a positive correlation.

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by mattdavis11

Denso is responsible for manufacturing sub standard parts since 2000ish, which is in alignment with their affiliation with GM.

And this wide ranging accusation is based on what evidence?

Sub-standard in what way?

[mattdavis11]

My opinion is based on experience in dealing with cars that have pre and post 2000ish Denso parts. The evidence lies in failure rates. Sub-standard is debatable. What I consider sub-standard is when a manufacturer (parts) deviates from prior practices and produces a part that has a higher failure rate than that of what was a norm. With Denso, they went from the top directly to the bottom on a/c compressor reliability. All of this happened when GM gave them the green light.

[jcommin]

I work for a Tier 1 part supplier that supplies many parts to the OE's. I'm not defending the practice but it goes something like this:

An OE gets quotes for a part from many Tier 1s. The contract is typically 3 to 5 years. A price point is established for the first year and typically a price reduction of xx% for each year contact is part of the agreement. After the contract expires, it can either be renegotiated, usually at a lower price or the product movers to another mfg. If it is a stamped/molded part, the OE typically owns the tooling/mold and they can take their tooling anywhere.

A Tier 1 that signs up for a contract, knowing of the price reductions needs to figure out how they can make a profit from the part. The OE isn't interested in inflation, raises, increases in materials utilities or energy costs. That is for the Tier 1 to figure out. How do they do it? Increase productivity, reduce headcount, cheaper materials, outsource, renegotiate part/raw material supplier contracts.

BTW, this is a delicate dance because sometimes the OE wants the additional cost savings passed onto them especially if parts or components can be obtained thru outsourcing.

I don't know anything about the part quality from Denso but their OE parts must comply to the standards the OEs set. Most if not all the engineering drawings for OE parts, I have seen in my facility, come from the OE themselves. My facility makes the parts that comply to those drawings. We don't deviate from that.

[mattdavis11]

That my friends, is exactly why Denso now has an aftermarket division.

[jcommin]

Originally Posted by mattdavis11

That my friends, is exactly why Denso now has an aftermarket division.

It is very hard to make money just from the OE business - profit margins are slim. The aftermarket: you can charge whatever the traffic will bear. But like anything else, you get what you pay for - there are cheap, good, better, best and OE replacement parts.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by jcommin

I don't know anything about the part quality from Denso but their OE parts must comply to the standards the OEs set. Most if not all the engineering drawings for OE parts, I have seen in my facility, come from the OE themselves. My facility makes the parts that comply to those drawings. We don't deviate from that.

When I worked at GM in the early '80s one of my jobs was figuring out if supplied parts that did not comply with GM's original drawings could be used anyway. The reason, of course, was GM could get the parts for some ridiculously low price. One of the parts I had to evaluate was a brass brake line fitting. Makes you think.

[jcommin]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

When I worked at GM in the early '80s one of my jobs was figuring out if supplied parts that did not comply with GM's original drawings could be used anyway. The reason, of course, was GM could get the parts for some ridiculously low price. One of the parts I had to evaluate was a brass brake line fitting. Makes you think.

Patrick,

I think those days are gone (at least I hope they are). Every morning there is a meeting with staff and each department reports on the day to day activities. The first report is always from EHS (Environment, Health and Safety) and the second is Quality. The department reports on quality alerts, complaints, costumer concerns from either OE or aftermarket. All of this is taken seriously and there are weekly meetings to review a potential line down (from lack of parts) or of product found unacceptable at the assembly line. The meetings are essentially a 7D problem solving analysis where we identify the root cause and take corrective action. The report is forwarded to the OE. I, personally, don't like these meetings as they are very time consuming. However you don't want to get on the bad side of the OE because it does jeopardize future business.

Like any other business, you need the meet the customer requirements.

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by jcommin

Most if not all the engineering drawings for OE parts, I have seen in my facility, come from the OE themselves. My facility makes the parts that comply to those drawings. We don't deviate from that.

That was once the norm, I don't believe it is now. More and more tier 1's design and build the parts to a spec. As an example look at electric power steering racks. All made by one big supplier, all almost identical.

Just another way of shedding costs.

But it is unfair to lame the manufacturers solely. They build what they are contracted to build. The initial quality is on them, but the longevity is often design related, and the OEM often owns that design.

[jcommin]

Originally Posted by 1990C4S

That was once the norm, I don't believe it is now. More and more tier 1's design and build the parts to a spec. As an example look at electric power steering racks. All made by one big supplier, all almost identical.

Just another way of shedding costs.

But it is unfair to lame the manufacturers solely. They build what they are contracted to build. The initial quality is on them, but the longevity is often design related, and the OEM often owns that design.

I would tend to agree with that.

[KNS]

Originally Posted by jcommin

Patrick,

I think those days are gone (at least I hope they are). Every morning there is a meeting with staff and each department reports on the day to day activities. The first report is always from EHS (Environment, Health and Safety) and the second is Quality. The department reports on quality alerts, complaints, costumer concerns from either OE or aftermarket. All of this is taken seriously and there are weekly meetings to review a potential line down (from lack of parts) or of product found unacceptable at the assembly line. The meetings are essentially a 7D problem solving analysis where we identify the root cause and take corrective action. The report is forwarded to the OE. I, personally, don't like these meetings as they are very time consuming. However you don't want to get on the bad side of the OE because it does jeopardize future business.

Like any other business, you need the meet the customer requirements.

On a somewhat related note... BMW has historically had crappy cooling systems, mostly due to the plastic/composite materials. Their longevity isn't very long. BMW knows they're lousy but has just continued producing the same style cooling system for about 20 years now.

Why would the manufacturer continue on this track..?

[jcommin]

Every car maker has had issues with a component(s), engines and the like. There are many forums, web sites, etc that will tell you to stay away from this year or that year, avoid this engine or that for multiple reasons. Sometimes an OE will be ask a Tier 1 to look into a component design because of premature wear or failure.

I don't get into the why or how.

I take my Porsche to a local dealer who has 2 free clinics every year. It is meet/greet. free inspection, talk to the mechanic and the like. You get to talk cars, see the new models and have lunch. I have known the mechanic who works on my car foe well over 15 yrs. He knows 944s like the back of his hand, I told him I was interested in a used Cayman and asked him what year(s) are the best and which ones to avoid. He first response was "none of them, they are all money pits". Some years are better than others.

[KNS]

Nice that the tech was honest with you about the newer cars...

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by KNS

On a somewhat related note... BMW has historically had crappy cooling systems, mostly due to the plastic/composite materials. Their longevity isn't very long. BMW knows they're lousy but has just continued producing the same style cooling system for about 20 years now.

Why would the manufacturer continue on this track..?

The cooling system likely does not fail during the warranty period. Or the lease period.

Ergo there is no problem.