Montreal GP

[javadog]

Originally Posted by rusnak

+1. Wow is right. I think Massa had brake fade or probably brain fade, since he was able to lock the FL after clobbering off the FR on Perez's car. Dumb.

Perez moved over on him. Got a penalty for doing so...

JR

[rusnak]

Originally Posted by javadog

Perez moved over on him. Got a penalty for doing so...

JR

I'm sure the stewards have looked carefully at all the video and telemetry, but that looks like a tough call from the TV footage. Perez was against the right side of the track. He'd be in the grass if he was any more to the right.

Massa - Perez crash Canada 2014 - YouTube

[javadog]

Slow it down and watch it again. The overhead shot shows it pretty clearly.

JR

[livi]

Superb race from start to finish. Jolly good show!

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by rusnak

I'm sure the stewards have looked carefully at all the video and telemetry, but that looks like a tough call from the TV footage. Perez was against the right side of the track. He'd be in the grass if he was any more to the right.

Massa - Perez crash Canada 2014 - YouTube

Watch Perez's onboard, Perez moves away from the outside to block, but Massa was already there. Seems on top of Pereze straightening the wheel to move to the left of the track, the car's got aerodynamically pulled together, so Perez's car reacts to the straight wheel(with large amounts of toe out geometry allowing the car to wander) by getting pulled into Massa's, and Massas, pulled into Perez.

If Perez had of kept the wheel into the corner, they wouldn't of hit *like that*.

Whether Massa could of made the next corner, is an unkown, Perez moved too late to cut off a perhaps overzealous pass, and the overzealous pass combined with a overzealous block = wreck.

Watch this.
http://youtu.be/_0PuSoufowQ

You'll clearly see Perez is not near the grass, and in fact, goes completely off line to cut Massa. It was a move too late.

Tough call, agreed. Whether to make a call on it or not, would depend on if Massa could actually brake for the next corner or not.

[rusnak]

Terv, that is a MUCH better viewpoint. I guess the stewards felt that they had to act in this case. What's tough about it is that Perez had to slow or move to his left in order to not hit Vettel, and it can be argued that Massa might have hit Vettel if Perez did not move to his left, which would also put Perez two-wide with Vettel. I bet the stewards argued over this one.

[kang]

If Perez were taking a defensive line into the corner, that would be legal, and it would be Massa's responsibility to make the pass cleanly. At what point do the stewards decide Perez moved over on Massa versus driving a defensive line?

Speaking of giving someone room to race, ROS clearly pushed HAM off the track on lap 1. HAM was along side ROS when they exited turn 1. The rules state that ROS should have given him room (1 car width) going into turn 2, but he did not.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by rusnak

+1. Wow is right. I think Massa had brake fade or probably brain fade, since he was able to lock the FL after clobbering off the FR on Perez's car. Dumb.

Perez intentionally changed his racing line trying to block the pass and hit massa, sending him out of control.
For that unsafe move that could have killed someone, Perez has been given a 5 spot grid penalty for the next race. I would have banned him for life.

Prolly a good thing I'm not in charge.

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

Perez intentionally changed his racing line trying to block the pass and hit massa, sending him out of control.
For that unsafe move that could have killed someone, Perez has been given a 5 spot grid penalty for the next race. I would have banned him for life.

Prolly a good thing I'm not in charge.

Ever sat in the cockpit of one of these? You don't get to look at replays like we do, and your visibility is extremely limited.

Perez moving over would be perfectly fine, but Massa came up faster than Perez expected. I also think that both their cars were also sucked together. You see it a lot with rookies that make it to a top series, and are used to dominant equipment(running at the front) with little side by side racing. They'll just aerodynamically suck right into another car beside them. An old hand recognizes and is used to it.

Hamilton, Vettel, and Alonso , are both excellent at riding the exact amount of room without having a collision. Massa and Perez, are not.

I don't think its cut & dried. Perez made what would normally be a legal defensive maneuver, just Massa came in to that space faster than Perez thought. Massa was not unlucky, neither was Perez, they both played a part. Kang, defense is moving to keep another car from entering that space - if the other car has already entered that space, its simply running into them. A defensive move is going to the inside of a straight away off a corner to guarantee yourself the inside line. If you take the normal line, and then last moment cut down on top of another car, that is another matter.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by Tervuren

Ever sat in the cockpit of one of these? .

Nope. Never caused a crash that killed anyone either.

IMO if you make a blocking move that send someone straight into a wall at 200 kmh or so, that is a ban-abe O'fense.

Like I said, prolly a good thing I'm not in charge.

[Deschodt]

Originally Posted by Tervuren

I don't think its cut & dried. Perez made what would normally be a legal defensive maneuver, just Massa came in to that space faster than Perez thought. Massa was not unlucky, neither was Perez, they both played a part.

I agree with that... Perez on the one hand is developing a reputation for crashing into you instead of letting you pass him. As Massa said, it's not the first time...

But Massa ? You gotta put some blame on the guy who was doing the overtaking and does the actual crashing into the other guy ! He seemed to be coming a LOT faster to the point where he might not have made the turn (Perez braked 5m earlier per his telemetry, at these speeds that's not brake checking, that's statically acceptable). You'd have to see Massa's telemetry to confirm his speed and we can't. I will only say that Massa had the freshest tires of the whole train of cars, a pretty hooked up car at that stage of the race, and IMO a Hamilton or an Alonso would have passed Perez (and possibly Ricciardo) in that car at that stage. Massa did not... 50/50 IMO. I really like Williams as a team and with Martini colors I think they are the coolest car on track - I wish they had picked Hulkenberg instead of Massa.

PS: Not a fan of any current driver, but I love the fact that Rosberg is getting under Hamilton's skin, and Ricciardo under Vettel's, contrary to pundits opinions pre-season ;-) At least Vettel showed good grace on the podium, showing Hamilton how to lose gracefully !

[rusnak]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

Perez intentionally changed his racing line trying to block the pass and hit massa, sending him out of control.
For that unsafe move that could have killed someone, Perez has been given a 5 spot grid penalty for the next race. I would have banned him for life.

Prolly a good thing I'm not in charge.

I'm not sure about that, but we've seen much worse blocking moves. I think Massa tried to pass where he was going to hit Vettel but ended up hitting Perez when Perez moved to his left. Note that Vettel was already braking for the left hand turn, so I think Perez might be 60% at fault. Really, Massa should share the blame here IMO because he didn't give room and insists on some sort of right to pass.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by rusnak

Really, Massa should share the blame here IMO because he didn't give room and insists on some sort of right to pass.

LOL that pretty much covers every pass in an F1 race.

Once you get the front tires past the other car's front tires, the other driver has to let you go by or crash into you. That's how most passes in F1 are executed.
Perez decided to crash into him rather than let him go.

[motion]

Originally Posted by Deschodt

PS: Not a fan of any current driver, but I love the fact that Rosberg is getting under Hamilton's skin, and Ricciardo under Vettel's, contrary to pundits opinions pre-season ;-) At least Vettel showed good grace on the podium, showing Hamilton how to lose gracefully !

Vettel knew the podium had been gifted to him, so he was in pretty good spirits, considering. Had he not been on the podium, I'm pretty sure things would have been different.

Danny is doing well. I for one am really enjoying the mixed up Red Bull team at the moment

[Captain Ahab Jr]

Originally Posted by Tervuren

Ever sat in the cockpit of one of these? You don't get to look at replays like we do, and your visibility is extremely limited.

Perez moving over would be perfectly fine, but Massa came up faster than Perez expected. I also think that both their cars were also sucked together. You see it a lot with rookies that make it to a top series, and are used to dominant equipment(running at the front) with little side by side racing. They'll just aerodynamically suck right into another car beside them. An old hand recognizes and is used to it.

Dude are you commenting about a film clip of Slyvester Stallone in driven or some action from the Canadian GP

F1 cars don't get sucked or aerodynamically pulled together, that stuff only happens in the movies

Occasionally a driver will approach a leading car too fast and not leave enough room or a car will dive out into the path of an faster approaching car in the braking zone

I thought Vettel was very lucky not to be collected by either car

[javadog]

Perez had been on the radio for a few laps complaining of no rear brakes. Team told him to continue if he could, or park it. After the race he said he made some adjustments and the problem went away. Horse****.

I think he was on the brakes a lot sooner than Massa expected and Massa did have much better tires, so to see him go deeper on the brakes didn't surprise me.

Perez does have a reputation for not giving an inch. In the past, he's crashed before he's backed off.

The stewards had the data from the teams and statements by both drivers. I'm siding with Massa on this one.

JR

[rusnak]

racing brings out the a-hole in us all I guess. Hahaha!! (shrug)

[Noah930]

Originally Posted by Captain Ahab Jr

I thought Vettel was very lucky not to be collected by either car

+1 Wonder if Vettel had any idea (looking in his mirrors), or if it was just blind luck that Massa slid in front of him without contact.

[yellowperil]

From the utube clips it looks like Perez was moving over and about to try an overtake on Vettel. I'm a Massa fan, but I think he shares some blame also.

In any case, it's a tricky set of corners. Lots of accidents at this spot. Very high speed into a tight area, and everyone thinking they can make a clean pass, doesn't always work. I think Massa was coming in far too hot. IMO

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by Captain Ahab Jr

Dude are you commenting about a film clip of Slyvester Stallone in driven or some action from the Canadian GP

I have no idea what your referencing, I think there's a movie with that name, but I can't watch "race" movies as they emphasize all kinds of things that are unimportant to a racer, and completely miss what is important. Grand Prix is an exception.

I won't claim a perfect understanding of F1 aerodynamics, I just know that when a car is going near 200MPH, there's a lot of air being displaced, and also turbulence trying to fill back in what was displaced. Depending on how the cars are positioned, there can be a push away, or a pull towards.

Ultimately, Perez straight lined the wheel in a right hander, sending him smack dab into Massa who had a full head of steam in what is I believe a DRS open straight.

As for Perez trying to overtake seb, getting on the brakes early there, no, doubt he was thinking that.